@BuggleBear Oh crap! Sorry about that.
You know what? It's cool, maybe it's for the best that someone else got all of these notifications. I was so invested in this, and in trying to educate men on what women go through and how they can be allies, while sharing experiences with other women, but men have constantly disputed and disrupted the chain of information we have had going here and have made me feel genuine despair over their responses.
So far I've been accused of being a bully, of mud-slinging (nope, just responding to posts as I, and undoubtedly other people, read them) been condescended to and had womens issues mansplained to me.
We wanted ONE THREAD where we could talk about the things that had happened to us, and to be vulnerable with each other without men feeling entitlement to jump in and share their (irrelevant) thoughts, but it's been proved time and time again that that is not allowed to happen here, apparently.
I'm taking a break from the site. I actually feel sickened by the amount of entitlement here. It sure didn't take long for a man to read this and go 'WELL I READ THIS THING THAT PROVES WHY I AM RIGHT AND YOU ALL NEED TO LISTEN TO ME'
One thread.
One fucking thread.
Let's all breathe. We can still save this thread from men where we can just talk amongs ourselves. Or we can start a new thread with all caps to help them see better who it's directed to. They can't mess up twi-.....nevermind I won't finish that but my suggestions still remain to try.
@FunCartel: I've done that too, with different usernames. L and i look way too similar, especially on screens. The line and the dot kind of melt together.
@BuggleBear Sorry you feel that way.
Andddd now I lost faith in my suggestions. Who knows maybe I'll get some back later.
EDIT: Wow, I'm late with this, I should really refresh the page before posting to make sure it's still relevant. These are responses to much older posts, nothing on the current page. lol
@FunCartel That's fair, I do agree that this is an issue that has to be tackled from many different angles and that there's no simple solution to it. I'm glad to hear that you haven't given up on voicing your disapproval of these kind of attitudes, and cutting these folks out of your life if need be, even though it can be discouraging.
I'm 100% in support of better education early on in terms of consent and respect, but I know there's only so much teachers can do - kids pick up so much of their behavior from their parents, older siblings, friends, stuff they see in the media, etc. It seems like a daunting problem sometimes, but I try to remind myself that a lot of progress has already been made, even if there's still a long way to go.
@DarrenWalker I'm glad you enjoyed the article! And hey, it's somewhat relevant to the original topic of this thread, isn't it?
Also, don't worry, I think most of us have at least some problematic programming from our early days - I like to think that what counts is our actions, and our willingness to challenge our beliefs. I agree that the culture is one of the toughest parts of this to tackle, and that changing it will require a lot of people to get on board. It's a hell of a task.
@DarrenWalker i actually can’t use that excuse for missing that letter. It comes from reading an iPhone screen with old eyes. Vanity just makes it hard to admit that.
@squeakytoy I have cut a lot of men out of my life but then again I have a hard time going along with the whole boys will be boys culture. Getting drunk and chasing women for sport is kind of pointless. I am by no means perfect, but so many men are going around thinking it is the 1950s in 2021. It is discouraging, and as a male, embarrassing. I do not know how this can be solved but it definitely has to begin with communication—not lecturing or belittling. All ideas should be welcome.
I was not gonna comment on this one, but it Seems like this thread has gotten off of the rails. I Hope to see more women share their experiences about instincts/first impression of someone versus how they actually turned out to be. Hopefully it will help other women determine red flags, and then us guys can get a glimpse of what it’s like walking in a woman’s shoes while meeting men who are displaying behaviors/presenting themselves in a way that make women uncomfortable. As a guy, I generally don’t fear for my physical safety when meeting with women so this would be very informing to me (There are still things I do fear when meeting women that are based on my previous experiences with them but this is not the thread to discuss that)
One thing I will say, is that, as a man, I’m not sure what else I can do. I will call out any creepy/harassing behavior as I see it. I’ve offered my ear, as well as suggesting they seek legal counsel, as well as therapy to women that have experienced it. I’ve even directly confronted a guy whose behavior I thought was creepy. I don’t think it’s likely that I’d be friends with anyone that would publicly display this behavior, so it is hard to call out another man for this reason. So this behavior can be clique-ish. I don’t know what happens behind closed doors, as many of these behaviors might only happen in privacy, and I if don’t know it’s happening I can’t do anything about it. As others have pointed, this seems to be a cultural issue that runs deep, of course we should call out harassing behavior as we see it but that won’t completely solve the problem. But it is a good, and necessary thing to do and I’ll continue to do it. I’ve never touched a woman without her consent, as my mother raised me to be respectful towards women, so I think parenting might be the biggest factor here. Being a teenager and young adult as guy, there were confusing, and possibly harmful advice given to me for guys looking to either date women or participate in hook-up culture. This advice came from other guys, the internet, and even other women, and what I was told was that guys should be bold and persistent, and to shrug off all negative feedback. Was also told that being an asshole was better than being a nice guy. Adding to this confusion were several examples of women that chose to be with abusive boyfriends, which at the time to me was evidence that being an asshole really was better than being a nice guy. Didn’t understand at the time how being in an abusive relationship messes with your psychology, and that normal people with heathy upbringings don’t seek out abusive partners. Also didn’t know at the time that nice guy syndrome wasn’t actually being nice it was just a descriptor for someone who does a favor for a woman then expects sex in return (which is not nice, it is coercive). This advice i got as a young adult is something I could see as contributing to harassing culture. My parents never talked to me about dating, and my siblings were very private, so all I could go by for that was the internet, high school Observations, friends experiences/advice)
So, what goes ooo, oooo, oooo?
A cow with no lips.
Carry on.
@sunnysideup Yup the thread was for women to share experiences and the guys could get a glimpse but it seems some people ruined that so doubtful anything else will come about in this thread. I would just say a new thread is needed to redeem this one.
What can you DO? Listen.
Gents, you don't need to mansplain - but get back on topic. Women... carry on.
In thinking back over all of this, I'm wondering if I should have just gone with my initial instinct, which was - If I think he's trying to touch my boobs, most likely he is. Ladies, have your instincts ever been wrong in a similar situation? Have you ever decided to keep cuddling with someone in spite of a little bit of an "uh-oh" feeling, and it turned out he really was a Good One? Or is it always - nah girl, go with your gut!
Thanks @Sideon !
I might respond more to this thread later but... phew. I need a break. I understand the importance of talking about this stuff, explaining why some things that seem innocuous enough to outsiders are actually harmful, keeping people aware of it all, etc, but holy shit, it's exhausting and it's always an uphill battle.
I think something a lot of guys don't realize about the issues we're talking about here is that they affect women so profoundly, but stay under the radar for most men unless we're actively talking about them. It's not hard to be emotionally distanced from things that don't affect your day-to-day life. But it's draining for me to always need to put the anger on hold, remind myself that a lot of this stuff isn't as obvious to men as it is to us, and try to find ways to communicate it clearly over and over again, even though I know it'll fall on deaf ears most of the time anyway. GAH.
To the men on this thread who have listened to us and learned from us, thank you.
Anyone who claims to be a "nice guy" is almost 99% anything but. Actual nice guys doesn't try to manipulate women into being with them.
To all guys out there: Just focus on your goals and stop worrying so much about chasing women. Having a purpose in life will make you more attractive.