@MountainCuddles if you seriously think that in the USA the vaccine is being "pushed" in any serious way, then I can only congratulate you on your ignorance.
To say that the government recommending that you take a medicine, which will do you good and do others good too, is tyranny, suggests that you may be a little hazy on the meaning of either 'medicine' or 'tyranny'.
Whether the push, such as it is, is for my primary or secondary reason I couldn't say. But I don't see why anybody would care about that anyway, at best it's a merely a marketing question.
All forms of medicine are a public or collective decision, absolutely none of them are entirely personal. We tried having it personaly .... it didn't work out. In all civilised countries we have serious medical regulation - you can't get even obtain a medicine unless the collective approves. You have your facts exactly backwards.
As for informed consent, well, nobody is obliged to be vaccinated - if you don't consent, nobody will force you. And the amount of information available is extraordinary, you can become as informed as you want to be. Everything you could possibly want to know, and a great deal more besides, is published on the internet.
Even if you truly don't care about public health, don't you care about your own?
And if you want to be part of this community - and it seems that you do - why don't you care about @DarrenWalker? Why be so unpleasant to somebody who is trying to help you?
Why are you so angry about vaccination? Please tell us again why it upsets you so much.
In the UK it is estimated that over 10,000 lives have been saved so far by vaccination. This is in addition to the tens or hundreds of thousands saved by the lockdown measures.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-vaccines-have-prevented-10-400-deaths-in-older-adults
Note that this study only considered adults over 60, and is therefore likely to be a modest underestimate.
???
Ever heard of informed consent? Everyone has the right to refuse medical treatment, for any reason, or for no reason. It's your right to refuse antibiotics for yourself, even if they would save your life. It's your right to refuse surgery for yourself, even if the surgery were necessary. Period. No one is obligated to undergo any medical treatment for any reason.
For myself, I would only undergo medical treatment as a last resort, if there were no other options available. I don't believe in medically altering the human body except, perhaps, as a last resort. I believe in keeping the human body as natural as possible. And there's nothing more unnatural than vaccines, especially this new crop of "vaccines." I'm certainly not injecting myself with foreign pathogens, toxic chemicals, or anything artificial, when I'm HEALTHY. Undergoing medical or in this case pharmaceutical treatment when I'm HEALTHY is not a consideration for me.
I do not believe this "vaccine" is beneficial for myself. I believe not taking the vaccine is better for my health than taking the vaccine. No one has the right to tell me any different. I would risk getting the virus over getting the vaccine. I have an immune system.
And I'm CERTAINLY not going to undergo any medical treatment that I believe is not beneficial for myself, for someone else's benefit. No one has the right to ask that of me. I'm not sacrificing my own health to protect someone else.
@MountainCuddles but nobody has told you that you can't work or grocery shop unless you are vaccinated. None of that is reality based. Nor is anyone being forced to get vaccinated. You are sounding like a paranoid delusional individual with all of this . I actually dont care that you dont want to get vaccinated. I care even less about your reasons not to . But you sound like a manic street preacher yelling about end times into the wind .
Got both of mine in January/February. Healthcare field.
@MountainCuddles
I consider it my civic duty.
The USA used to force able-bodied men into war via the draft. Imagine today's American man being forced into war when they won't even take medicine for their neighbor's sake?
Be brave.
I was worried too, but I decided to be brave and do what was best for my neighbor's despite any trepidation... especially for the kids that can't get vaccinated. It's your right to be scared, though. More power to you.
@MountainCuddles have you considered that you may suffer from tomophobia?
While we are here, would you put 3-methyl-1-butanol acetate (aka 3-methylbut-1-yl-ethanoate) into your body? Note that it is flammable, and is classed as a hazardous chemical by the US Coast Guard (amongst others).
The only reason I'm considering it is because there may be a family cruise for me later this year.
It doesn't prevent you from catching Covid, so I'm really not sure what it does. And I've gone over a year without it and haven't caught it, that includes working in the public (at a restaurant) for the past 6 months and even closer with the public at a haunt all last year.
I'm just wondering how we went from "2 weeks to flatten the curve" to "Papers please". You want to travel? "Papers please."
1 and done Johnson and Johnson!
No vaccine for me. I'm not comfortable with the quick rollout and question the origin of the virus itself, just like Dr. Fauci. Serious question, is it mis information to post a CNN link to an interview where he questions the origin as well? Or are we officially living in 1984?
Totally... one shot of Johnson and Johnson a month ago ..
@Bears100 As I told you by a direct message, it's fine to post reputable articles. It's not fine to claim that they support conspiracy theories when they do no such thing. Please stick to the facts. Thank you.
@Bears100
I'm not comfortable with the quick rollout
The number of vaccine doses given is now about 1,700,000,000. It's going up by about 29,000,000 doses per day. That's quite a testing programme.
Much earlier in the year I encountered quite a number of people who were concerned by the speed of the rollout. Not a single one of them understood how it had been achieved. (The question confused me at first because the initial rollout in the USA was agonisingly slow compared to the UK.)
Last I heard the origin of the virus was still unknown. However, it doesn't matter: we're here now. (But to be on the safe side, lay off the raw bat.)
@BrianL
It doesn't prevent you from catching Covid, so I'm really not sure what it does.
To save you a few seconds on the internet, here's one study (of many) publised in The Lancet:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00947-8/fulltext
In summary, the Pfizer vaccine effectiveness against: asymptomatic infection was 91.5% symptomatic infection 97.0% hospitalisation 97.2% severe or critical hospitalisation 97.5% death 97.7%
Cohort of 6,538,911 people aged 16 or over.
So no, the vaccine doesn't 'prevent' anything, it just reduces the chances of it happening dramatically. Further, from other studies we know that transmission to another person by people who are infected is halved in those who have been vaccinated.
Or to put it another way, vaccination means a relatively normal society. Non-vaccination, as we have seen in India, means having to burn the bodies in the street. By choosing to not get the vaccine, that's the world you are voting for.
And I've gone over a year without it and haven't caught it
Well that's what we would expect. Far fewer than half the population have been infected. That's a bit like claiming that you haven't been in a car accident in the last year.
You want to travel? "Papers please."
Producing vaccination certificates is an absolute staple ingredient for travel and has been for many decades. I have done it more times than I can remember. (I used to keep a bundle of vaccination certificates tucked inside my passport.) If you think that this a new or different thing that just means you don't know very much about travelling. Covid vaccination certificates for travel is a topic that has been in the air since at least January 2020, if not before.
I get my vaccine information from respected medical journals that have been publishing peer-reviewed papers for some time. That's because they are the only place where there is any vaccine information - everything else is either a rehash of those papers, or a lie that somebody came up with to benefit them and hurt you.
Where do you get yours?
I'm to have my first vaccination today finally
I already had covid and have the antibodies. No need for a shot
@cuddleaddict my body my choice is valid. Its not my responsibiity to make sure everyone doesnt get sick. Otherside you better put the madk back on forever, because we can still pass along the fku, the xommon cold (which kills a ton of people yearly) and plenty of other airborne illnesses. This vaccine is also not a cure. Its just a vitamin shot that grows antibodies maybe. You can catch covid even after the shot. And no we should not be looking to get the shot every 6 months as some doctors are suggesting. This madness needs to end.
But seriously wash your hands and cover your mouth when you cough/sneeze
Please do not post Covid-19 related misinformation. The vaccine is not a vitamin shot. Thanks. -squeakytoy
@wrench
Wrong.
my body my choice is valid.
Wrong. It would be true only if you were the only human alive. Or perhaps the only person on an otherwise deserted island. We all breathe the same air, remember.
Its not my responsibiity to make sure everyone doesnt get sick
Wrong. If you breathe out germs because you refuse to be vaccinated, and somebody dies, it's your responsbility. In the UK it is an offence to cough deliberately on somebody and claim that you are infected: there have already been a number of convictions. (Whether you are infected or not is obviously irrelevant.)
You can catch covid even after the shot.
True, but it reduces the chances by over 95%. (I haven't seen data on the rate for previously infected people, but the initial figures seemed to suggest that it reduces the chances of reinfection by something like 30%.)
Well that covers surface and droplet transmission, but what about aerosol tranmission?
This vaccine is also not a cure.
Correct. Please note also that a car is not a bicycle, a bandage is not a medicine, and that a saline drip is not a recreational drug.
I can see that this TOPIC has sure opened up a can of worms, LOL. I had both of mine and I put it on my Profile for all to see, maybe that question should be on all profiles-? I still wear my mask when out in stores, I don't see any harm in doing it, if it would make only 1 person feel safer/better, then to me it's worth wearing it. the mask may not be 100% protective, but the way I look at it, it's better then not wearing one at all. This topic is one reason why I think it would be a good idea to search the forum for reply's of anyone you would be thinking of meeting for a cuddle. I did learn how to to do that, but I wish there would be a link button you could click on to do the search on every profile. I know I have found several that I would not even want to meet in person in any form after reading there comments on here. I have even blocked some, so they will not show in my search, as I do tend to travel some and like meeting other people in my travels.
Let the antivaxers speak... that way we know who never to cuddle.
@Mike403: Heh. Yeah... or at least not unless they become sane.
(Which may seem unlikely, but it's happened before—people can be very wrong, and then realize their wrongness, correct it, and become right. Takes help sometimes, but it's possible.)
A cuddler who's a danger to themself and others isn't a very cuddly cuddler. It is good to know to stay away.
All true @Mike403 @DarrenWalker. But I can't help feeling that the antivaxers need a cuddle more than anybody.
I'm a massage therapist, fully vaccinated since March with Moderna. One of my best clients is a radiologist. She was telling me about breakthrough infections, and she's also concerned about that possibility, for people around her and also because she loves to travel. What I gather is that antibodies signal the cells to block invading pathogens from entering cells. Once inside, a virus will use the endoplasmic reticulum to manufacture more viruses to the point that eventually the host cell ruptures, spilling out new virus copies into the body. They then try to repeat this process. Antibodies slow down the process by making breakthroughs more unlikely. This gives the body time to craft a response by making better antibodies and also hopefully marking viruses for destruction. Without a vaccine, viruses are constantly eliciting a response from the body. There's hardly a microbe entering the body that doesn't stimulate a response. The arbitrary concern about a vaccine being inherently different than a "natural" pathogen is groundless. The only real difference is that a vaccine is crafted to be especially benign for almost all exposures. Without a vaccine you are still being chemically manipulated every day, so at least with a vaccine you have some choice about it.
When did we lose the art of respecting the personal choices of others and begin attacking and shaming people who disagree with us? That goes for any topic.
This thread has turned into a pogrom against anyone who has a divergent thought from the majority, and it’s extremely off putting and exactly what is going wrong in the world. We’ve lost the art of respecting others whom we disagree with and make moral judgments about their character, which is arrogant and dehumanizing.
If we’re confident that the covid shots work, then there’s no need to feel threatened by others who choose not to get it if we already have. You’re protected, right? For the same reasons, we also have no need to feel threatened by divergent thoughts and views, nor do we need to censor them. We’re all adults who can look at information others talk about and make up our own minds about whether to believe it. We need to be exposed to other ways of thinking than ours. It’s actually healthy, and it sharpens our critical thinking skills to ask questions and be curious about why others think the ways they do. Most especially when they disagree with us. Silencing anyone who disagrees from the group majority is not how to handle disagreements. In a relationship, that’s called stonewalling and it’s toxic. It does everyone a disservice and we get nowhere. I understand censoring disrespectful or abusive speech - but let’s all imagine what it feels like to be the person getting attacked by a group for answering a question and disagreeing - it doesn’t feel good and puts people on the offense, so we are actually antagonizing the angry responses we get. We need to take responsibility for that.
How is society ever going to heal and have peace if we can’t have open discourse about things we disagree about, and worse, in our self-righteous arrogance, demonize anyone who doesn’t think the way we do? We can’t. How serious are we about world peace? It starts with us respecting the rights and personal choices of others, especially when we disagree with their choices.
These questions are for serious self-reflection only, not to spawn further arguing, nor to make me a target of attacks which I have a sense are coming my way now. I hope we take a moment to pause and reflect objectively on how we are treating others with whom we don’t see eye to eye, and whether it’s truly helping or hurting us all. Good day, everyone, and I wish you all wellness.
@TheMidnightOwl: I, uh. I lost the art of respecting the personal choices of others right around the time their personal choices started harming and even killing at-risk folks who, for whatever reason, can't get the vaccine.
I dunno, I just have a hard time respecting people's "personal choices" when their choices cripple me.
Character flaw, I guess.
"Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said contagion from asymptomatic COVID-19 patients is unlikely. It was recorded in January 2020, when there was less scientific information related to the transmission of SARS-CoV-2.
"The #CoronavirusFacts database records fact-checks published since the beginning of the COVID-19 outbreak. The pandemic and its consequences are constantly evolving and data that was accurate weeks or even days ago might have changed. Remember to check the date when the fact-check you are reading was published before sharing it."
"A new study from the Journal of the American Medical Association suggests that asymptomatic infections account for more than half of all COVID-19 cases.
"Medical experts have shifted their views on asymptomatic spread over the course of the past year."
I have a large family. Both of my parents had more than six siblings each so I have many dozens of Aunts, Uncles , Cousins. Many elderly people in my family. Many! I have friends and acquaintances all over the country. I know all of my neighbors and I attend all neighborhood meetings. Like a hundred people attend each meeting. I work for a national organization with hundreds of employees that I engage with each week via phone and email who are all over the country. I dont know ONE ...single...person who died from COVID. Fact check that.
Over 8 MILLION people have died from Covid, world wide. Yes, probably a good idea to not participate in this thread. [-Sid]
@DaytonCuddler: I, myself, have damaged lungs thanks to Covid. Fact check that.
Edit: Since when did "not dead" equal "fine and dandy"?
I could follow that up with something that is not hostile at all, but this is not a forum for intelligent discouse when it comes to this topic. It's pretty clear what the party line is in this forum so I will just concede
People who refuse to get vaccinated are trying to kill my parents. It's that simple.
Almost all the antivaxers who have posted on this forum post lies. They surround those lies with displays of grotesque ignorance. Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people have died because of those lies.
My friend @DarrenWalker is sick, and has been for a long time, largely because of people who refused to wear a mask or wash their hands.
@midnightowl
If we’re confident that the covid shots work, then there’s no need to feel threatened by others who choose not to get it if we already have. You’re protected, right?
Wrong. Categorically, unequivocally, dangerously wrong. Every time one of the gullible believes that particular lie, it signs the death warrant of somebody, somewhere, somewhen. There are myriad reasons why. They have already been posted on the forum, and are all over the internet, I'm not going to write them out yet again.
We’re all adults who can look at information
Sadly, that is not true. I have yet to encounter an antivaxxer has done that.
midnightowl I believe vehemently in the things you say about a more compassionate society. About respecting those who disagree, and how alternative viewpoints are valuable. It's all true. More than true, essential.
But none of it applies here. There is no disagreement. There is no discussion or debate. I have never heard a single coherent reason for not getting vaccinated. Not one. To have a discussion you have to have two points of view, but there aren't. There is only one - on the whole, vaccines are a good thing.
The antagonists to this point of view - the antivaxxers - post a mixture of lies and gibberish. Frequently this is supported by nonsensical assertions and metaphorical foot-stamping of the kind more commonly seen in ill-bred toddlers. At no point has an antivaxxer ever posted anything so grand as a fact.
So if you don't want to get the vaccine, I say, ok, why? My first reaction is that I'm worried about you. I mean that midnightowl, I'm worried about you.
I know two people who are not getting the vaccine. I'm very fond of them and I hold both of them in the highest regard. One suffered a very severe reaction to a vaccination as a child and is terrified at the very idea. The other, when pushed, will grudingly admit that she's basically just being an arse about it: the last flicker of teenagedom before the suffocating blanket of adulthood.
The truth is that being 'antivax' has nothing to do with vaccines. It has to do with societal and psychological factors. It has to do with the love of ignorance and the safety of a well-known rut: with the complex feelings brought up by the offer of help, or the necessity of recognising a wider society that usually feels distant or threatening, or something.
I know somebody else who has a severely compromised immune system. Basically she doesn't have one. She was in the number one priority group for vaccination, but since her immune system doesn't really work how much good it did her is debatable. She has a normal job and has a healthy attitude to life. One day, this year or next year, she is going to be walking down the street when a breath of wind will carry somebody's sneeze into her face....
I think you can all finish that paragraph for yourself.
My college will require all students to be vaccinated for Covid by the fall of this year with the threat of being kicked out of school if they don't.