The only video I have ever enjoyed of a white person taking on the Patois accent was the time Rob Ford (RIP) was drunk and probably had a hit of the crack pipe at some restaurant in Toronto.
CW: Some profanity
That was actually entertaining, whereas the other video posted was just nasty because it was intentional and it was a hecking kid being encouraged by a parent. Vomit.
@pmvines I totally agree! Beliefs can vary based on life experiences, levels of privilege/lack or privilege and other factors too.
Jeez... some stiff has happened since I started my initial reply to Saysoh (below the break)...
@nycuddlerny - How very privileged you are ~ must be nice.
@cuddles_ndream - FWIW, It's okay to say, "Wow! You know what..? I messed up. I thought it was funny and didn't see that I was participating in perpetuating a cringeworthy mockery of others. I'm sorry that as @FunCartel said, "I didn’t see what is wrong with a white male kid making fun of Jamaican speech in a derogatory manner." I still don't fully understand and that's on me to work on. But I know it offended others in this community and for that, I'm sorry."
Hi @Saysoh ~ I saw you quoted me and responded in-line to comments from my first post in this thread. I wanted to take time for thoughtful consideration in my response to you, and I hope you can see that. If you want to know more about anything I've said, I invite you to further question me either here, or through PM's.
First, I'm sorry to hear you are hurting and took any of what I said as a dig at you personally. It honestly wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I mean not really... I was coming from having been involved in a post loaded with accusations, name calling, baiting/trolling (unsure if that's really the case, but after a bit, it really didn't seem like the way members of this community tend to interact - at least not from what I've seen anyway). Anyway, there seemed to be some projecting in there, or at least an, "I know there's something wrong with you because I don't trust myself to be able to follow the rules/control myself. And since that seems so real for me, I'm uncomfortable accepting that isn't true for others." type of being.
"I think it comes from insecurities, a place of vulnerability" This is a contradiction. Insecurities implies hiding and lies when vulnerability usually represents someone trying to be open and allowing things to come in to process.
"I think it comes from insecurities, a place of vulnerability"
This is a contradiction. Insecurities implies hiding and lies when vulnerability usually represents someone trying to be open and allowing things to come in to process.
Insecurities come from when we've been harmed while vulnerable (in my experience). One's feelings of inadequacies can cause them to do and say all sorts of things in an effort to protect themselves from another blow. So, to me, one who is coming from a place of insecurity has a fear of being vulnerable.
"Change in perspective can be slow and difficult. Often there's a lot for someone to deal with unpacking and denial/projecting their beliefs on others (because of course every one thinks the way I do, if they didn't I would have heard about it.) is all they know how to do sometimes. " This is kind of confusing. Please elaborate. I'm going through grief, trauma, a career change, paradigm shift in perspective.I'll comment on this: "(because of course every one thinks the way I do, if they didn't I would have heard about it.)" This is assuming every[one] is close-minded especially while under the stress of life. Believe it or not, there are actually people that don't rest on laurels.
"Change in perspective can be slow and difficult. Often there's a lot for someone to deal with unpacking and denial/projecting their beliefs on others (because of course every one thinks the way I do, if they didn't I would have heard about it.) is all they know how to do sometimes. "
This is kind of confusing. Please elaborate. I'm going through grief, trauma, a career change, paradigm shift in perspective.I'll comment on this:
"(because of course every one thinks the way I do, if they didn't I would have heard about it.)"
This is assuming every[one] is close-minded especially while under the stress of life. Believe it or not, there are actually people that don't rest on laurels.
No. I'm asserting that for some who go on and on - those who actually believe what they're saying to a point of becoming defensive, argumentative, repetitive, and belligerent within a group (and aren't trolling) just to get their close-minded point across - it's very likely noone in their inner circle has told them they're wrong or given an alternate view/opinion to consider. Confirmation bias happens all the time (birds of a feather and all).
Being wrong is something some are very insecure about. Admitting a mistake shows vulnerability. And both leave one open and exposed to the potential of more harm (and/or feeling bad about oneself).
I didn't really get what you're referring to with, "rest on laurels" so I looked it up and got this, "to be satisfied with past success and do nothing to achieve further success."
To be clear, I don't think anything about a supposed "everyone" other than I think the vast majority of people don't wake up every day, twirling their mustsches and combing their beards, wondering aloud, "Let's see... How can I ruin another person's day today? Mu-ha-ha-ha...".
That includes you and everyone else here. And though it may not have come across as such, I was coming from a place of empathy and understanding for those who project. It's part of being human. Trick is, sometimes we need to adjust our focus, to see more clearly, because our own point of view can often obscure us from seeing another's... Myself included.
@quixotic_life
"Insecurities come from when we've been harmed while vulnerable (in my experience). One's feelings of inadequacies can cause them to do and say all sorts of things in an effort to protect themselves from another blow. So, to me, one who is coming from a place of insecurity has a fear of being vulnerable."
I really have to disagree here based on my experience, because I have insecurities, but make myself vulnerable to everyone. I'm a two-time addict in recovery studying to be an addiction counselor. In the addiction community, there are many people that open themselves up and still carry fear. I would imagine there are many communities with the same. Same with the "White cis male American," comment I expressed on- it doesn't help matters to generalize and place a stigma which seems to be a trend and think think you are doing something good by calling out a group of people. For comparison, there's a myriad of things people get addicted to; food, sex, porn, attention, indulgence and this list goes on, however, the term addiction is mostly linked to alcohol and drugs and when I think about, "projecting," people could fall into this category that they may be projecting using terms, like, cis white male americans," the same way a person can be addicted to something without knowing since it doesn't involve drugs or alcohol. I'm hoping I'm articulating that thought well. My whole point, since the cis gender," term is new, it's often used as a defensive mechanism and puts people like me in a box and doesn't deserve to be there. That's just my experience.
"Being wrong is something some are very insecure about. Admitting a mistake shows vulnerability. And both leave one open and exposed to the potential of more harm (and/or feeling bad about oneself)."
This is a conversation about ego which is a whole other rabbit hole, but still doesn't deserve a generalization. Like I said, I'm a straight white male in my forties and to be generalized is insulting the way other communities are generalized. It's just not fair and when the, "american" tag is involved, that just takes it to a whole other level, because that's just saying, "american white men," are just monsters unlike any other country on the planet that is majority white, it's all opinion based not deserving of creating a category of people like me to be into a box when they don't deserve it. And for the record, I live in a military town and when soldiers are deployed, in the field, shipped to school, white cis women are no different from the example of white cis men in this thread. There are so many variables involved, but I don't see anywhere near the opinions of how women behave to men as men behave toward women and yes, it feels like an attack. I have been approached by many white women in a bar that were married commenting on my eyes, my body, my height, perceived strength and even my calf muscles (hard to believe, but true), but you don't hear talk of, "cis white women americans."
Define it as privilege all you want, but I've been all good when it comes to respecting boundaries my entire life with everyone. literally, everyone.
"That includes you and everyone else here. And though it may not have come across as such, I was coming from a place of empathy and understanding for those who project. It's part of being human. Trick is, sometimes we need to adjust our focus, to see more clearly, because our own point of view can often obscure us from seeing another's... Myself included."
Agree 100%. Al I can say to that is:
@DarkLordChungus @DarrenWalker I always know I'm in for a treat when you two are involved XDD
I'm a little to tired to respond to all the points everyone's made. But I think projecting is something we all do, unconsciously or otherwise ~
I was really surprised when I came here and saw so many people who only cuddle cuddle men or women. This idea that you can only cuddle with someone you're physically attracted to is very strange to me.
That was my experience, so I figured the majority of people would be like that. But I had to learn the reality and adjust accordingly.
It's partially why I'm not too keen on making myself available for cuddles again. It seems like a lot of (presumably straight) women also like to cuddle only men, so even though I'll cuddle anyone, that means most of my cuddle prospects have been men.
Which is fine! It's not straight men I'm concerned about, it's Straight Men™.
See, a straight man might be attracted to women, but he still sees them as people, rather than objects of desire. A straight man does not feel entitled to someone's time and attention. A straight man will treat you with respect, even if they don't necessarily want to form a connection.
You can usually identify a Straight Men™ here fairly quickly because they tend to overstep boundaries, or assume you have none to begin with. They ask for pictures way too quickly, and try to make arrangements to meet way too soon.
I was just talking with a friend of mine who went on a date with a nice straight man. To hear her tell it, they had nothing in common and she didn't feel much of a connection. So I was surprised when she said she asked him on a second date. And when I asked why she said something like, "Because when I turned him down, he was really respectful." WHICH I TOTALLY GET! But it's also sad, because really? That's the standard for men?
And I think that just goes to show how hard it seems to be to find decent men because all these Straight Men™ have become the expected default.
Which is harmful for everyone all around ~
@EarthlyAngel003
That's my point exactly:
"And I think that just goes to show how hard it seems to be to find decent men because all these Straight Men™ have become the expected default."
Which is harmful for everyone all around ~"
Literally, to everyone.
Topic reminded me of this video that made me laugh XP
I'm a hetero white guy. Nobody needs nor should ever feel bad nor guilty about who they are. Just try to be self aware. Be a good human and dont perpetuate a stereotype that adds to the problem. Dont bury your head and pretend issues dont exist for others that might not exist for you due to priviledge.
@Catloaf Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and views!!! 🐈
And How @pmvines !!!
@Saysoh ~ I spent a lot of time on my last post because I was being intentionally thoughtful with what I wanted to say. This time around not so much as I don't feel I got the same courtesy (which is fine - that's on my for having hopes), so please excuse the abrupt "tone" that may/will likely come across.
1. I believe you are generalizing and lumping me in with others who have commented here. Do I agree with many of them? Yes. But to assume so, without asking me, is putting me into a box.
2. Has anyone here said, "All White Cis Male Americans do _____."? I have not seen that combo of words, in any order, anywhere on this thread (other than from you). But I may have missed it. One thing I'm certain of though, at no point have I ever used the phrase, "White cis male American" or any version there of, in making my points. I have commented in vague, and potentially infuriating to many, used wishy-washy words like, "some" and "people". I've been non-specific when it comes to race, gender, nationality, sexual orientation, etc. because I'm literally referring to conditions inherent in all people everywhere.
3. Ah... ego. I disagree that isn't part of this conversation. In fact, I think it's what's driving it.
4. My experience with organized addiction recovery groups is pretty much nil. Therefore the terms I use are ones I've gleaned from various exchanges where things of this nature were being discussed. I'd like to let it be known that if I have misused a word, I am the last to be surprised! I come from a world where people can forgive such things as my intent and meaning are usually clear. And I figured here, as in real life (irl), if one wasn't able to get the gist, they'd follow-up and ask me to clarify.
5. My note about privalege was 100% directed at one specific comment (two if counting their doubling-down). To claim, "I notice everything around me when I go out, regardless of who it is. I have never witnessed a woman being treated badly by any guy in public." is absolutely absurd! Unless they are a shut-in recluse I call complete BS on that! The only other way for it to be true is they're clueless about what those who are impacted by them are talking about and are therefor part of the problem.
6. Wait.... Women... Have approached you... And... COMMENTED... On your appearance...?!! [gasp!] I hope you can appreciate the potential blowback you're setting yourself up for here. Because I can tell you, if that was all women had to deal with day in and day out, we wouldn't be having these types of conversations. It is a known fact that men, at an alarmingly higher rate than women, push boundaries, and make those at a physical disadvantage feel unsafe by their words &/or actions (as stated much more eloquently by others earlier). To claim or assert otherwise is to be wilfully ignorant.
7. Glad you were able to appreciate my closing around people not having blinders. Let's hope more will remove theirs and wake up to what's going on here, and irl!
"This time around not so much as I don't feel I got the same courtesy (which is fine - that's on my for having hopes), so please excuse the abrupt "tone" that may/will likely come across."
This is offense (not to be confused with offensive).
"3. Ah... ego. I disagree that isn't part of this conversation. In fact, I think it's what's driving it."
We are eye-to-eye thinking that's what's driving it and even said, "that's a whole other rabbit hole."
There's a noticeable difference in your thought out reply and knee jerk.
I'm just going to step stage left. I thought we were talking. I didn't mean to trigger.,
Please have thick skin and a soft heart. Projection and perspective are not the same. Stereotypes are derived from general truths about groups of people, but should not be applied to individuals. Growing up I had a shelf full of Collier's Encyclopedias. They looked the same as a group, but inside they were all different. I don't get to choose my gender or my skin color. But yet I was told in this thread that I'm the biggest problem because of my gender and skin color. The outside of every single Collier's Encyclopedia in my home is black. But they are not the same. Who is projecting? Someone said it was rj88, who was banned. Are we exhuming a problem that has been laid to rest? Or just virtue signaling that certain races and genders are morally superior than others? So, who is projecting?
@cookiecrumb ~ I may very well be projecting... Also, please skip my note to Saysoh below... My heart is in it, but it's not soft.
@Saysoh ~ Umm...
That didn't feel like "talking" to me, and I'm not "triggered". I am however irritated when people accuse others of something they themselves are doing, and I take issue with those who come across as dismissive or who try to diminish or side-step the plight of others [especially when in regards to those from historically marginalized communities], hence my warning. I was disappointed in your reply and wanted you to know. Additionally, those weren't "knee-jerk" responses. I was being direct with my thoughts, without formatting or couching them in sensitivity (because that tact didn't work well the first time around and I didn't feel compelled to make the time to do so again). "Triggered"? No. Wanting to further my attempts in correcting another's perceptions because it's important to me? Yes!
Googled definitions:
Projection ~ the unconscious transfer of one's own desires or emotions to another person.
Perspective ~ ¹ the way or outlook of how you see things. ² the evaluation of a particular situation or facts especially through one's personal point of view.
Ego ~ ¹ the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity. ² a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
Cis [Cisgender/Cissexual]~ a person whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth
Heteronormative ~ denoting or relating to a world view that promotes heterosexuality as the normal or preferred sexual orientation.
Insecure ~ not confident or assured; uncertain and anxious.
Vulnerability ~ the quality or state of being exposed to the possibility of being attacked or harmed, either physically or emotionally.
Inadequate ~ not enough or not good enough
Addiction ~ ¹ the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity. ² is an inability to stop using a substance or engaging in a behavior even though it is causing psychological and physical harm.
Spectrum ~ used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points.
Trigger ~ something that affects your emotional state, often significantly, by causing extreme overwhelm or distress.
Offensive ~ ¹ causing someone to feel deeply hurt, upset, or angry. ² actively aggressive; attacking.
Offense ~ annoyance or resentment brought about by a perceived insult to or disregard for oneself or one's standards or principles.
Warning ~ ¹ cautionary advice. ² advance notice of something
Historically marginalized communities ~ ¹ groups who have been relegated to the lower or peripheral edge of society. ² Marginalized communities can include people of color, women, LGBTQ+, low-income individuals, prisoners, the disabled, senior citizens, and many more.
::and:: Here's a special food for thought dessert...
...now I want a cookie!
Ya'll have way too much time on your hands
@EarthlyAngel003 says,
I always know I'm in for a treat when you two are involved XDD
Ahahaha, yes. And we're often asleep when things really take off. So many new comments!
Projection is definitely a thing we all do: looking at others and seeing our own beliefs and traits, feelings and desires (whether they're there or not) is very normal.
Obviously it's easiest to get in the habit of assuming that others share your beliefs and traits when you're surrounded by people who actually do! People who are in the majority will obviously find it a whole lot easier to fall into that trap than folks who're a minority.
Especially if society's built on the assumption that they're the default: for instance, it's normal to get a resume from John Smith, unusual to get one from Jendayi Perez, etc.
Now, I'm white.
This means I have a tendency to look at non-white people and assume that, like me, they can do things like walk down the street without getting harassed by the cops, or call the cops without having to worry about them shooting me instead of taking care of the problem, or just plain buy a kid's book without having to specifically search for one that has characters the same color as my kid, or....
It's easy to forget that everyone isn't like you in areas where most people are like you (or at least the social default definitely is).
This thread doesn't tell me that I'm the biggest problem because of my skin color. It reminds me that my skin color puts me in a privileged group and, if I'm not careful, I could end up projecting hard and painfully—as many people in my group do.
It's a good reminder.
@pmvines , thank you, that was lovely.
And yes, I concur about Straight Man TM
@quixotic_life I appreciate and tespect someone who can both exercise introspection and read between the lines. In 1905, The Daily News, a London newspaper, posed the question, "What is wrong." Anecdotally, G.K. Chesterton responded: "I am." But truthfully, he responded: "In one sense, and that the eternal sense, the thing is plain. The answer to the question , 'What is Wrong?' is, or should be, I am wrong.' Until a man can give that answer his idealism is only a hobby."
Now to the problem of getting a cookie, I'm afraid the closest thing to a cookie available between you and me are the ones left by your browser. Sorry.
@DarrenWalker Thank you for sharing perspective and views on empathy!
@SuperManCuddles: Oh, cool. I didn't even realize that was what I was doing. (Empathy is not my strong suit—I thought I was expanding on the basics of how privilege can lead to projection.)
""Triggered"? No. Wanting to further my attempts in correcting another's perceptions because it's important to me? Yes!"
This is the EXACT definition of being projective.
@Saysoh: Uh. Pointing out a mistake is not the same thing as making a mistake.
See, projection is a mistake in perception, so....
@DarrenWalker
"""Triggered"? No. Wanting to further my attempts in correcting another's perceptions because it's important to me? Yes!""
How is correction of another's perspective being an importance not projection you just labeled a mistake?
We're talking definition here.
The quote is what @quixotic_life wrote to me.
@Saysoh & @DarrenWalker
Whoops! I should clarify...
"Triggered"? No. Wanting to further my attempts in correcting another's perceptions of what I had previously said and felt had been misinterpreted because it's important to me to be understood even if disagreed with? Yes!"
Also, @DarrenWalker ~ I loved your, "expanding on the basics of how privilege can lead to projection" post!
@Saysoh says,
I don't know what an "importance not projection" is.
Leaving that aside for the moment: saying, "Your perception is inaccurate" is not the same thing as looking at a person and seeing yourself instead of them.
@quixotic_life: Thanks!
This is fair. I'm in the same boat of wanting to understand.
"...now I want a cookie!"
This also could be taken as a double. You know the phrase , I'm sure, "you want a cookie?" The internet is a fickle thing. A lot gets lost in translation.
Here's my position jus to make things clear- I don't attack anyone. Disagreeing is just sharing, yea? That's how we learn outside of our ego. I disagree often, sure, but I try to understand.
I kind of think this thread has derailed. The only reason I even commented to the OP, is because I was told I was projecting in another thread and ten minutes earlier and this post was made and people have even PM'd me about it.
Here's my overall view and this is no lie- I'm team human. We're all in this fight together. Let's handle this shit even though views don't align.
I think you may have missed something said to me, but was rephrased by @quixotic_life after I commented.
But, doesn't matter.
Oh... thank you @Saysoh for that bit about the other thread and timing of this one. I hadn't picked up on that.
"A lot gets lost in translation."
Oh my goodness!! It most surely does!!
"I'm team human. We're all in this fight together. Let's handle this shit even though views don't align."
Same, Agreed & Absolutely!! 😊
All the peace, all the .
Nah, it was this that baffled me:
See? Your words, not hers. But eh. I guess it doesn't matter.
Fair. It's squashed with Quix. I'm having several conversations at once. Please disregard.