Yes, that comment totally baffles me. I don’t think anyone is framing this as a men’s or women’s issue. The topic under discussion is monogamy and polyamory. The subtopic under current discussion is, from my point of view, is that @Arphaxad007 suggested that raising children in monogamous relationships was tantamount to child abuse because of the upheaval so many of them experience if their parents divorce. (@Arphaxad007 can correct me if I’m misrepresenting his point.) I’m disagreeing and suggesting that neither monogamy or polyamory are inherently better, only different. As far as I can tell, the conversation has been civil and has nothing to do with men’s or women’s whatever.
I just went back and read through that comment he was referring to and I'm just sitting here wondering why I've never found myself at any swinger parties. Why is it always the people who DON'T want to go to them that get dragged to them. 🤦♀️
For parenting, exactly as for any other sort of relationship, it isn’t the “group types” that make the difference, it is the individual people involved.
Those willing to communicate, work hard, compromise, forgive, support, and celebrate (among many other important traits) within a relationship will have far more success, and get far more satisfaction and reward, than those who don’t.
You get out what you put in.
The grass is greener where it is watered.
@CharlesThePoet as always, well put and poetic. I agree with you and @Babichev that the people make the relationship, regardless of family, friends, or lovers.
As a side note, I read all of @CharlesThePoet's posts in the voice of Sam Elliot.
@Big_Chris 🤣
A shade deeper, but not so gruff.
Speaking style is much the same, low and slow to keep attention.
“The grass is greener where it is watered.” Oh, I like that. Yes, that’s true no matter what.
@Babichev I stole that fair and square! From Robert Fulghum, I think...
I'm loving @Babichev's comments. Very grounded.
I have the relevant experience to motivate me to argue in favor of a version of @Arphaxad007's case, specifically that the fact that so many people enter into codependent and ultimately unhappy, volatile, and unsustainable marriages, due to their trauma and conditioning, harms children. However, for me personally, carrying bitterness about the institution of coupling (for example, living together?) as generally practiced (or some such thing) does not serve me. Just because I was unable to parent alongside my ex, in a shared space, with any sort of mutual respect, does not mean that neither I nor anyone should try to do so! I'm much better about avoiding drama nowadays, through how I select partners, how I address conflicts, how I know myself and conduct myself, and so on. Even if my kids got attached to a partner of mine, and our living situation or that partner's availability changed, we could navigate it. The kids will be ok.
I'm a now-polyamorous guy who got married, had kids, got divorced when the youngest was an infant, is sharing them between two households, and is now gradually and very intentionally on a path with a very wonderful partner towards living together and parenting together... I mean, I can see how at some level, I had no idea what I was getting into, getting monogamously married (at 28) to someone relatively jealous and controlling, vowing never to cuddle another person (essentially)... and my actions were part of a common trend of entering bad couplings, as mentioned above, and if we hadn't ended ours when the kids were so young, it could have done more harm. As far as abuse, though, lots of common parenting techniques are technically abuse, like yelling at them, or constantly invalidating their emotions. Every day as a parent, I try not to abuse my kids! (If I'm just doing something that has a 50% chance of leading to yelling, if you look at statistics of the population at large, that doesn't count.)
I don't think monogamy is dying at all. It's very, very popular. One thing to keep in mind is that, it's easy as a poly person—if you are the sort of poly person who discovers that you never really "got" monogamy, and as far as you can tell it's some artificial cultural artifact—to think, maybe everyone feels that way, underneath their habits of thought. They just haven't had their lightbulb moment yet. It turns out, nope. Monogamy actually makes a ton of sense to a ton of people, is the conclusion I have come to. It feels natural to them. Not for lack of being willing to introspect, unpack their beliefs, give polyamory a try, etc. However, just because something is really popular and feels natural to a lot of people doesn't mean it works for me, or you, at all!
@Babichev
I feel compelled to point out that the nuclear family success/ failure paradigm is against the monogamy norm. The transition from the patriarchal bread winner home maker version of it is underway, but what is emerging isn't clear and makes discussing like these interesting.
Marriage's persistent decline (and divorce persistent increase) and family law court's evolution are indicating enough to me that paradigm is on its way out. Coupling is a vestige of the institution of marriage.
Poly (with all it's variations) is still too new and infrequent as a phenom to draw many conclusions about. I dunno how my new phone did the underlines above... they were an accident but I'll leave them and figure out how to do more.
@Arphaxad007
Not that I am defending monogamous relationships, or attacking them, but I will point out something about statistics, such as that 51% number.
It’s certainly believable that 51% of all monogamous relationships “fail”, but keep in mind that many of the individuals within that 51% “fail” multiple times, that is, are married and divorced, married again and divorced, etc.
So it is easily possible mathematically, as a random example, that 51% of relationships fail, but only 21% of individuals are responsible for those failures.
As a statistician I can assure you Mr Twain was correct: There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
😉
@CharlesThePoet, good point about the statistics.
Some divorce statistics:
It is estimated that around 41% of first marriages end in divorce. Around 60% of second marriages end in divorce. Around 73% of third marriages end in divorce.
So if you are getting married for the first time you have a 40% chance of getting divorced and if you remarry your chances increase.
Apparently the rate of divorce has been declining over the last 15 years and so is the rate of marriage. The latter is declining faster than the former.
The U.S. has the fourth highest divorce rate in the world. Russia is #1, followed by Belarus and Gibraltar.
As I read further down the page, there seem to be a few contradictory statements but I’m going to leave it at this.
https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/
I bet the USA is the clear winner in the number of divorce lawyers.
My apologies if I'm tagging on something already covered above.
Of all the mammals, we self-proclaimed our number one status on earth after deciding to use our spine against the recommended funtion it was developed for. From that point on, we jumped in and out of having the same non-judgmental acceptance of when Benji makes Marmaduke his bitch😏 We base our values on the whim of society and set our moral compas on laws that suit us at the time. The biggest "Switching of Teams" we've orchestrated has to be on what a "normal" relationship is.
Past civilizations promoted having multiple wives. Some countries even today, have men far more disorganized than the "norm" that require more than one multi-tasker in the mix😉 Look at how the Roman civilization what later we decriminalized what we later demonized ourselves. They were of a much higher class than that of their close-minded neighboring barbarians or their hemophobic Vikings by separating carnal sex to males and family building continuation activities to females😏
Love is love, truth is truth, right is what is expressely shared between you and the person or persons that bring you happiness.
@CharlesThePoet Agreed about the type of relationship being less important than the people in it.
I was briefly poly-curious at the beginning of 2017. On February 10th that year there was a polyamory mixer in South Laguna Hills, CA. I attended the first hour, but it just got too loud and I couldn't join any conversations that were happening at the event. It took place in a hotel, and I bet more than half the attendees had rooms booked so that they could spend the night. It was a very expensive hotel that I couldn't afford being unemployed at the time.
I later read in Polyamory Magazine that it's common practice in the polyamory community to be obligated to love all one's lovers equally regardless of the size or makeup of the group. I doubted myself on being able to do that and immediately believed I'm a monogamist.
I do see disadvantages to monogamy though, especially in romantic and/or sexual relationships. Each half of a monogamous couple is asking for fulfillment of all of their sexual desires by one person.
I personally don't believe monogamy is dying per se. People are just discovering there are other options and choosing to try them out, sticking with them if they're happy and comfortable with these other options.
Working at a reputable massage parlor chain and hearing stories of married men asking for happy endings made me believe that maybe monogamy is not as common as I grew up to believe. Of course that, my personal experience of being cheated on in a few relationships, and hearing of friends and family cheating on each other is all anecdotal “evidence”.
Knowing all of that I definitely think monogamy is dying and I often find myself wondering when and if someone has already cheated on their partner if they’ve been together for over 10 years. Am I a pessimist?
I was curious to read this thread! Lot of feedback and excellent communication is happening on here. @Big_Chris @Babichev @CharlesThePoet living the healthy non judgmental banter on here.
@Emma no you’re not a pessimist just someone whose had their world turned upside down and hurt in that process. I’m right there with you on that and I may go to hell for saying this but I too feel everyone is cheating and monogamous relationships are dying.
I’m a monogamist and I don’t think I’m going to find someone that believes in being with A person. I respect everyone’s choice to do and live how they see fit, I’m not in a place to judge as I have made mistakes as well and gone against everything I believed in and stood for, it’s hurting my heart bad. I was selfish and put my happiness front and center without thinking of consequences. It was a bad idea, but it’s done & gone now.
You do YOU be happy and try not to hurt the other person. Be clear with your boundaries follow and set them correctly. Be forthcoming of what you want and expect out of each other, I know it’s easier said than done. I have been in a long marriage that didn’t work out and after reading the toxic monogamy culture post by @PeopleLikeUs made me think of what the Swedes have it’s called SARBO, very interesting concept to me it is.
https://www.thelocal.se/20190107/swedish-word-of-the-day-sarbo/
I definitely would like a relationship, but I also love my own space. I think living together 24x7 like in a typical normal marriage add on kids responsibility etc somehow makes a partner or both partners resentful to each other when they don’t carry equal responsibilities? Then Ofcourse the romance the love has all gone out the door.
If this reads discombobulated it’s way past my bedtime 😂😂
@Melomaniac9 Sarbo is exactly what I had been planning at one point with my long distance person. We had this plan that my family was going to live on one side of a duplex and he was going to live on the other side of the duplex , I was going to be free range. Lol But that never happened. The sarbo arrangement seems ideal to me but pretty expensive for most people to live in two separate households. I just wouldn't mind having my own room. I had to share a bedroom with my sister when I was a kid and all I wanted was my own room, so to have to share one with someone in my adult life kind of blows. Lol
I know this guy that wanted to move from Canada to the U.S. Before he did, he proposed marriage to the girl next door. She thought about it for a few days, said yes, packed up, and moved with him. They were married for 30 years plus until she died. After he recovered he proposed marriage to the woman next door to him here in CA and she accepted. Another 30 plus years later they moved into a nursing home where she eventually died. He then married the woman in to room next door and they remained married and both died within a year of each other in the nursing home.
He was a very religious Christian man. In Canada, he was a farmer. In the U.S. he was a self-employed piano technician like myself. He was an early Silent Generation. Both he and his 3 wives knew exactly what their expectations were. None of his wives were employed. They took care of cooking, cleaning while he worked at bringing home the bacon. They were all really good at it and loved living that way.
Today, that would be viewed as just one set of expectations amongst many. When I started as a piano technician in the '70s, women were still at home and would write me a check. Now I never know who's going to be there and money mysteriously appears in PayPal and Venmo. I can cuddle, get massaged, go to the spa, yoga class, without any of the encumbrances of "Honey! I'm home!" stuff. But I must say, this Boomer was envious of that hayseed.
Monogamy does not equal toxic monogamy. Monogamy is a real life allegory for something greater. If both people understand that "something," then monogamy flourishes. If it is not understood, then what else should happen, except that the relationship becomes toxic or just breaks down or is repeated cyclically?
@MaineCuddle sighhhh if only wishes were horses…correct? But think what if you already have your separate homes? Why not just stay in them and have your space and he has his space. I get that it’s financially more lucrative for both parties to cohabit if ones moving from another town, city or country. What if you’re in the same city?
And in all this wishful thinking I’d want it to be a monogamous relationship too. I don’t want to share my space and have you move my things around it messes with my anxiety 😂😂 Living by myself for 7 or 6 years, good god I don’t remember I need sleep lol. I have gotten used to my own schedule and not having to share my bathroom 😂😂😂 Or buy a plot of land and have two tiny homes or box homes on there 🤩😂🤩
I don’t know if monogamy will die out or if it even should. Polyamory isn't for everyone. But what needs to go away is toxic monogamy, where it's framed as the only correct and morally right way for relationships to happen, where people in any romantic relationship are expected to approach how they relate to everyone else fearfully with everyone not your romantic partner kept at arms length lest you are "emotionally cheating". THAT needs to end.
The key is open honest communication with reasonable agreed upon boundaries and with consent top priority.
@ConsentIsKey I happily keep men I know are in a relationship at an arm's length, generally giving them a bro hug at best and make an effort to address the woman first until I establish myself as trustworthy out of respect for their relationship. Even then, I continue to take precautions so I'm not just nilly willy around a man that is taken or whom I've no interest in to avoid leading on. And that I aid in putting her at ease. I'd want the same treatment from others when it comes to the relationship I'll have. Emotional cheating exists and sometimes people can do things that make others feel threatened whether that's done intentionally or not. So I don't agree with putting the onus all on us to not feel some type of way because sometimes things are being done to makes us feel that.
@Lovelight the question is whether that framework is discussed between partners or if it's expected of everyone who is in any romantic relationship. It's also about when one party exerts control over the other and acts as if they own the other person. Thus communication between partners is top priority. I think it's best for people in any romantic and/or sexual relationship to determine collaboratively with their partners what boundaries will be in place. It's up to the set of partners in question, not any one-size-fits-all scenario expected of everyone.
@ConsentIsKey Yep.
@Melomaniac9 I'm all for separate homes. The only reason we were even going to do the duplex arrangement instead of staying in our separate homes is because we lived 2+ hours away and only had the chance to see each other in person once or twice a month. Wanted to be close but not live together. But anyway, it's not even a plan anymore.
Not even Mary, mother of Jesus, was monogamous. Mohammad?, nope. Hindu scripture is litered with kings have multiple Queens. There is even a woman who had 7 husbands.
Mistresses and brothels are a form of work in our society. The american midwest was settled by a lot of Madams.
There has never been a trend of monogamy. I don't understand his misconception.
The only thing that getting more light is the consent behind having multiple partners because it's now more acceptable to simply say, monogamy isn't for me.
In the last ten or twenty years, there is a trend for more people to live together in groups that includes both couples and singles of different genders-many couples invite people to rent out a room in their home and share the common area and become part of the household. While it is generally for economic reasons, in my experience it often progresses to closer relationships between not only the singles in the household but between one or both in the committed relationship and a single as well. Sometimes this is without the other partner's knowledge. I wonder if for some this was a plan all along. What better way to branch out than to find someone you feel is compatible than to have them move in and see what develops.
Wowzer what a great and fascinating thread with wonderful input from so many. I personally appreciate the input from people who speak of their personal experience.
I'm a relational creative. I like to discuss and set up relational structures that work for each being I relate with, whether that's blood family, or heart family. I tend to be devotional and I tend to really love the growth and transformation available in a contained relationship structure, and I tend to find mixing it up sexually with more than one person at once to be splintering to my energies, to take up too much time, and to be more than I want to maintain. I'm just not motivated. And largely that may be because I'm more into the metamorphosis that comes with a container than I am into sex.
I've historically been monogamous because of that, serially so, but I've had very deep nonsexual relationships with others of varied genders.
Once I was exploring the question, "Am I monogamous from conditioning or not?" and tried on twice being sexual with more than one person. Each time the choices I made to stick with my monogamous thingie came from too much drama and restimulation on the part of the others (who were all men), and so while I feel like I could theoretically be polyamorous in heart and body, logistically it just wasn't appealing.
All my relationships have ended in the stage where the shadows hook and the partner and I were not equipped, or deemed it not worth it, to traverse that place together. I'm still looking to get through that as I suspect there's a deep well of potential transformation, humility and growth to be had there. No one's been up to it despite my being so.
From the start I found a group of adults for my daughter who could act as her mentors and aunties/uncles. When her father and I split, her godfather was right there to provide a bridge and support to all of us. The level of commitment to her well-being was high among all of us and while the whole thing was hard on her (having our household dissolve), she had a whole web holding her.
I have also experienced a partner wanting to explore a poly lifestyle, but it was IMO a desire for variety over self development, an evasion of looking at deeper issues like communication. If you can't communicate with your primary partner, sex with another one isn't going to be a long term solution. Which brings me to this: the skills necessary to have deep, integrous, alive, honest, healthy relationships are many, and few of us actually acquire these skills growing up. Most of us have to make a lot of mistakes before we deepen in our capacity to own our feelings, take responsibility for ourselves, come out of selfishness, set boundaries, express needs, etc.
I just have loved so much of what you all have expressed here, and that's my two cents.
@MaineCuddle I get what you say totally. And bummer it didn’t work out. 🫂🫂 I have always been fascinated by Bangor maybe I’ll swing by and say hi to you one day🤩
@ConsentIsKey I totally agree that toxic monogamy needs to go! And also cheating needs to end, emotional or otherwise. If it’s not working out just leave. I know it’s easier said than done but it’s still fucked up.
@littermate I love the way you describe it as “splintering of your energies”, your words always fill my heart with joy! I think I’m a serial monogamist….. I thought about social conditioning too. Went from a long ass marriage to nothing for like a million years….. then connected with a soul…tried the casual route fell flat on my face, got up bruised and battered and realized I can’t do flings or casual sex or whatever you may call it!! I’m old school, I just want to focus and love on a single soul. Whatever it was, was never meant to be… I went with my eyes open to push myself out of my comfort zone, to try and be carefree and see if I could be aloof and detached!!! Failed miserably. The only good thing is I think the other party did not realize I was a fool 😂😂😂at least I’m hoping I didn’t make an ass of myself😂😂😂 It’s fine and done with! water under the bridge… liberated my soul gave me my wings now I’m flying high without looking down on the ground!!
Long story short learned my lesson and decided to just stay in my box and be happy with myself.