I saw some statements on another thread tonight, and not wanting to derail it, below is my question to you.
If you care to, please share your thoughts about how you arrived at your answer.
Absolutely.
Super conscious?
To believe something, I need evidence. What evidence would the universe being conscious produce? What would we only expect to see if the universe were aware, and not otherwise?
And what level of consciousness are we talking about? Something above Azathoth level,* I'm guessing—but how far above? And if it's only a smidgeon more conscious than that, how would we measure it? What would the evidence of that level of consciousness be?
What would the evidence of any level of universal consciousness look like? What effect would the universe being conscious have?
* Azathoth: a drooling idiot who has no idea it (or anything else) exists.
@DaringSprinter
This.
I believe it must be and though it doesn't at times fit into my limited mental capacity ,here's wgat majes me say yes .I've been presented with various insights brought to me as I've evolved .I did not grasp what I didn't know existed or was possible. It's infinte vastness ,the fact that it evolves through seasons, that it's time is not linear yet manages to bring me messages or experiences passed down from my ancestors so I'm.at one time here and in a previous time .It offers up teachers in the firm of nature or likeminded beings that i ask for and as the student becomes ready so the teacher presents itself. I don't have the scientific back up bit wgat it does for my spirit ,mind ,bodyl to have this view it perspective of my existence and that of others in relation to the universe keeps my soul buoyant and assuars my resilience, for me that is brough that I see synchronicity and patterns and synergy that makes me think I'm part of a living, evolving, highly intelligent consciousness that assists my time here .🙂.This way if thinking then assists Mr believing the world is a benovekabt place even when I'm having a rough time ,it's just a season just like mamma earth shows me .
Pardon the lack of spellcheck my spontaneity overode my grammar and spellcheck. Fortunately the brain can have but a few letters of a word and grasp the rest 😊
Isn’t we believe in something when we are not sure about it? If there are evidence that we can perceive then we'll know for sure and there is no reason to believe.
Probably you meant to say you’ll accept it when you see a tangible evidence
I think conciseness along with memory and intelligence gives meaning to what we call life. I “believe” at the time of conception a fetus inherits copy of the parent’s consciousness along with subtler aspects of memory & intelligence, however without active sensory organs they can’t perceive like us to register high level-memory that we used to remember.
If consciousness is being inherited then I tend to trace it back to the initial creation itself.
Given the vastness of the universe, human species might runout of their time to understand everything that they usually evolve & do or end up finding solace in a beautiful religious story.
Not to stir up a debate here, just my two cents, I might be totally wrong and curious to know different perspective.
note:- edited few points after the original post.
@vivlnnw
Isn’t we believe in something when we are not sure about it?
I believe you're thinking of faith.
Consider the question "do you believe Abraham Lincoln was sentient?" Answering this in the affirmative doesn't mean you have faith. It just means that's a belief you hold: it's an idea in your head that you think is accurate.
Yes, I believe Lincoln was sentient. All the evidence we have seems to point to that, doesn't it? If he lacked sentience, I wouldn't expect to see writings and speeches attributed to him. Of course, I can't say I know he was sentient, or even that he existed. I never met the fellow. I've only seen evidence.
Faith, on the other hand, is what you have when you believe things without evidence.
As a side note... based on your faith in copied consciousness, I think you may be interested in this short story:
https://www.tor.com/2016/08/17/the-weight-of-memories/
"To believe something, I need evidence. What evidence would the universe being conscious produce? What would we only expect to see if the universe were aware, and not otherwise?"
This is very much an ego answering and not objective thinking and what I mean by that, we walk around thinking we've achieved this high level of understanding when the truth is we really don't even understand what consciousness actually is. It's like we just move humilty and critical thinking aside within ourselves and community, without curiosity.
I had to google, "Azathoth," and shallow-dived it and honestly, I regret that I did. I really wish you recommended a book- I would have ordered it immediately.
Let me put it this way; why do kids believe monsters live in the closet or/and under the bed? It's been thrown around in academia that memories not only live in our stomach (over 500k nuerons) "trust your gut")) and also in our heart which also has nuerons (nothing close to what our brain houses) "trust your heart")), so who's to say our DNA can't hold memories from ancestors? Why is there this instinct in kids that think monsters exist? The theory summed up- it's a survival instinct in our genes. Far from wrapping your head around it, yea? Well, so is the universe, so is consciousness, and, "gut feelings." My question is to you, and you can google everything I just said- where does that come from? The point, we just don't know yet. We can't even agree on evolution, right? If you're Christian and believe in Adam and Eve, hasn't science already proven that siblings mating and producing offspring cause retardation (sorry for the political incorrectness, but I'm using the word by definition)? Why trust ideologies so much?
Personally, I think we haven't even ,"tipped the iceberg," yet. I think we're in the first six-inches of powder snow on the top of the iceberg and we have centuries of understanding to even get to the water line then we have to understand what lies below, but we reward ourselves with distractions to create this bubble of understanding because we're scared of curiosity. Most people live, "in the now," and don't think about what could happen in fifty-years and even 100. We just want the best life now.
@MrPaul To answer your original question, yes, how can you not objectively think the universe ins't a living organism? There are so many things happening in rhythm just the way life happens here, yea? We've developed clocks based on a perceptive contruct of time, right? twenty-four hours in a day, 365 days a years, Halley's commet every seventy-five years, every lunar eclipse, it's all on a calendar just like our everyday, so realistically, if you question whether the universe is alive or not, you have to think about that we follow the patterns of the universe and question what life actually is...objectively.
Like I said, outside of our ego telling us we know everything, objective thinking tell us we don't know shi!t. Humility is accepting that which in turns, feeds curiosity and learning instead of just knowing.
@Saysoh
This is very much an ego answering and not objective thinking and what I mean by that, we walk around thinking we've achieved this high level of understanding when the truth is we really don't even understand what consciousness actually is.
I require evidence for my beliefs precisely because I'm aware of my mind's imperfections.
I know full well that without evidence it would be easy for me to believe all kinds of things untethered from reality. The human mind is great at that. Requiring proof keeps me at least a little closer to the real world than I would otherwise be.
And consciousness is the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world. We all experience it. If we didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I had to google, "Azathoth," and shallow-dived it and honestly, I regret that I did.
Why did you have to Google it? I provided a definition in my post—that should have been all you needed to understand my point.
who's to say our DNA can't hold memories from ancestors?
Who's to say the Tooth Fairy can't be real?
You see where believing things without evidence for them goes, right? "Ooh, there's no evidence against, so I might as well believe it" is how you end up believing an all-powerful being created two humans and then those two had incestuous kids and grandkids from whom all humans today are descended.
how can you not objectively think the universe ins't a living organism?
Canceling out the double negative, that means "how can you objectively think the universe is a living organism?" The answer is: I can't, and I don't.
Life is a characteristic that distinguishes physical entities that have biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (they have died) or because they never had such functions and are classified as inanimate.
The universe is no more a living thing than a gas bubble or a volcano or a crystal or a house is. It has animate things in it, yes, but it is inanimate.
There is no evidence whatsoever that it's animate.
what life actually is...objectively.
Objectively? "Life" is a category created by humans to organize what we see in the world around us! It's not objective, it's never been objective! But according to the definition we use today, the universe is not alive. Want to change the meaning of "alive" so you can call the universe that? Fine! But it won't give the space we live in biological processes of its own—unless you want to redefine all that, too, but nothing outside the words will change.
I think you're set in your beliefs and that's cool. I respect that. I wasn't trying to change your mind, just offereing a perspetive.
@Saysoh: And you're clearly set in yours, to the point where no lack of evidence will sway you. You'd make a fantastic Christian.
Me, all I'd need is for the universe to... say... eat something, digest it, and poop the waste out.
"You'd make a fantastic Christian."
My parents thought that, too. Didn't turn out so well.
@Saysoh: Or a conspiracy theorist, Wiccan, flat-earther, whatever. Anything that simply requires ignoring all the no evidence for whatever the assertion is—you can take your pick, there are a lot of beliefs unfounded in reality to choose from.
Now you're just picking a fight so I'm going to exit stage left, smoke a bowl and crash.
Peace, homie. All the dreams.
@Saysoh: You may note I'm criticizing ideas and modes of thought, not people.
It is easy for the human brain to disregard lack of evidence. It's also a good way to end up believing things that aren't true—which is why we have so many people clinging to beliefs that aren't supported by evidence.
Avoid this, I beg you! For the love of your own sanity!
...Assuming you have any love for that.
Thank you for your responses. Two more questions to contemplate. 1. Are you conscious? 2. Are you part of the universe?
1 If I'm not conscious, what is this notion of self I have, and what is this site I see before me?
2 A tiny part, yeah. Like a single Lego in a box of Legos. (And before you ask: yes, my teeth, liver, bones, etc. are a part of me, and no, they're not conscious. Consciousness is what you get when matter's in a certain shape, not a quality of matter itself.)
Let's suppose you have a GIGANTIC box made out of Lego and filled with Lego. (Let's suppose you have a universe made of matter and filled with matter.)
Now suppose an infinitesimal fraction of the Lego in the box has ended up clicked together into little things with wheels that can roll to move. (Now suppose an infinitesimal fraction of that matter has formed into brains capable of consciousness.)
Does this mean the box is mobile? Does this mean the universe is conscious?
@MrPaul certainly we are consciousness.. If we think otherwise, then we need to contemplate what are we? Or a question ages have asked "who am I"?
@MrPaul
I'm optimistic and believe consciusness is a stream that could, if understood, could connect us all. And I mean all, I mean everything we don't have the ability to understand whether that understanding comes from tech or from self-awareness.
For example, if I was sitting at a bar and you sat next to me, I'd introduce myself and probably spark up a loose conversation with you (which I do often with random people, not always in a bar). More times than not, people engage in the conversation loosley, but sometimes, that bar conversation leads to this inherent instinct where a person decides to connect with another person. Not in a romantical sense, but just basic interaction. So, I often think about where that comes from, right? Where does a random conversation at a bar turn into this conversation that subconcious decisions made by both just turn into a friendship for the night or sometimes a long lasting friendship? There's a switch that happense where facades are just broken down and people just decide to connect even if just for a night only to put that facades back up the next day.
What is that? A desperation to connect? An innate feeling that's just within us? Academia has tried to define this and break it down, but there seems to be this natual attraction to connect to people which brings stream of consciousness into play for me.
Personally, I think it's there, but with so many distractions like ambition, ego, success, whatever, we've lost it within our consciouness, but our subconsciousness remembers.
There is no such thing as the Universe. It's just a word for something we don't understand.
Yes. The conscious energy in myself is the same as the conscious energy in this place. Yogis and mystics have various states of awareness that indicate the oneness of all things. One such state, Samadhi, has left me unable to discern myself from my surroundings and all that is. For me, this state is fleeting while at the same time, eternal. It has never been my aim to exist in this state but for some of my spiritual friends who are diligent in their practice, I hear frequent stories. I tend to use spiritual energy to maintain my earthly existence and to enhance my connections with others. But yeah, I have had experiences that have left me certain we are one with all that is and all that is is conscious.
Once again, thank you all for your responses.
More questions:
...Does the fact of awareness have a form, shape, or boundary. Seriously?
Does the fact of existence have a form? Tell me, what do you think the shape of the fact "this tree exists" is? What's the boundary of "humans breathe air"?
Can there be anything outside of the fact that some dogs run? Wow, what sane questions! Truly thought-provoking and deep.
Take a brain. Give it lots of neural connections, different lobes, a capacity for creating various neurotransmitters. Hook it to organs that pick up light waves, sound waves, temperature, pressure, scent molecules, etc. Watch the brain interpret the input. We call this "awareness."
This, right here, is a single consciousness. It's aware of the things it's seeing. The things it's hearing. The things it's feeling—including the feelings produced by the brain itself, like happiness and sadness.
Take away the neural connections, there goes the capacity for awareness... which means there's no fact of awareness, which means there's no consciousness. Consciousness is a process. So what's its physical form? What, you ask, is the physical shape of a thought? I guess it's the electrical connections in the brain. The boundaries of consciousness are the edges of the neural web, if that can be said to have edges.
It is, I think, a stupid question. "Fine," I might say, "the boundaries of the fact that humans breathe air are the edges of the lungs, or maybe the alveoli." It's still a stupid question.
Consciousness only exists in the minds of sufficiently intelligent life forms; if there were to be a form or shape, it would be the grey matter that permits consciousness.
Only everything. Things don't stop existing when a conscious entity dies. Things don't exist for the benefit of conscious creatures.
Uni means one. There is reason to believe that we are living in a multiverse.
Do I think the universe has “consciousness”? I don’t see any evidence for that. To have consciousness as I recognize it would require a brain.
@Mike403 - the whole business of multiverses is something I pretty much avoid, don’t want to go down that rabbit hole since it all seems like conjecture to me. However, since you’ve said there’s evidence for it, could you say what evidence that would be? I’m asking from a point of complete ignorance on the subject.
Is it possible to know if a thing or organism is conscious if you are not yourself that thing or organism?
More simply, one cannot know what another’s perception of anything truly is. I cannot know how a color appears from your perspective, only from my own.
I can’t speak for the universe, but I do know that on my deathbed, I will achieve Total Consciousness.
So I’ve got that going for me, which is nice!!
search "the rice experiment" based off dr emoto's experiment, you can do it in your own home to demonstrate that human consciousness effects the molecular structure of water