Or do they view us as reliable food sources which they have become accustomed to, where we are familiar to them / safe / & approachable?
(Example: would they miss us if we go away for days / weeks / months ect)
I dog-sit. They definitely have at least 2 distinct loves; "my human" love and "my provider" love. They also bond-with and remember people with whom they've played/had fun.
Some people like to talk about humans express love by referring to 'love languages'. They are
Acts of service Words of affirmation Gifts Quality time Touch
Do pets demonstrate these? If so, it is good evidence that they love us.
Acts of Service - yes. Intelligent animals such as dogs can do this.
Words of affirmation - an easy one, yes. Purring, for example.
Gifts - yes of course. Often regrettably, but anybody who has had a dead bird dropped on their face at 5am can attest to the truth of this one.
Quality time - absolutely
Touch - ditto
QED
PS - some pets can love us, but it doesn't mean that they do. My friend once had some African land snails for example ... I doubt they were even aware of her existence.
My turtle used-to chirp at me. He had the run of the house until one fateful day. Anyway, he would show up wherever I was sitting. He would drop 1 hind-quarter and raise the opposing, like a lowrider in the parking lot. Then he would crane his head and neck, upward, and chirp. Kind of like a paraqueet bird caw.
Nah, they couldn't care less...
Obviously I'm being sarcastic.
Dogs and cats, yes I firmly believe they can love. Reptiles, not so much.
I know a woman who bought a Rosy Albino Boa at a pet shop. It was only about 15” long when she bought it. She told me that she knew the snake loved her because it would hug and squeeze her arm whenever she took it out to hold it. I hated to break it to her that “hugging and squeezing” is how a boa constrictor kills their prey, not how they show affection.
Reptiles absolutely do show affection.
@BuggleBear I stand corrected. He (or she?) looks very happy & content being held 😊
@Gallowglass this is precisely how I express my feelings.
Moohahahahaaa! (Hit me out of left-field). My sides hurt from laughing!
@JohnR1972 I found these online but I know a few people that have snakes, lizards, chameleons, tortoises etc, and they do love cuddles. My friend has an iguana that has free roam of the house and as soon as she gets home the iggy goes running straight for her, climbs her clothes and curls up around her shoulders and nuzzle her neck. He absolutely loves being around her and having snuggles. She's taught him to play fetch and everything, he rolls a ball along the floor and plays hide and seek and all sorts. He's very sweet and adores being carried like a baby.
@BuggleBear I had no idea about reptiles making bonds like that with people. The boa “hugging” my friend’s arm seemed like it was just an instinct like wrapping its body around a branch or hunting dinner if it was hungry (granted, at 15” long it wasn’t much of a danger to a human). Thank you for sharing, I learned something new today 😊
@JohnR1972 I mean, don't forget that snakes of course don't have limbs, so the only way it can show affection is by using its body. Snakes are smart enough to know the difference between a limb and a body part they can crush to kill their prey ready to eat, so I think it probably was either being affectionate, or enjoying her warmth. Snakes will quite happily wind themselves around an arm and be worn like jewellery, or nestle happily in a hoodie pocket. I've seen people watching TV with their hoodies on back to front so the snake can curl up in the hood, against their chest. Either way, they like to be close to people 😊
This dog definitely doesn't love me.
I don't know about love, but most animals seem to be capable of enjoying affection. Like @Gallowglas, I once had a box turtle who roamed around the house. I typically went barefooted in the house, and he would come by and gently nibble on my toes.
I had a tarantula who was about the size of my palm, who enjoyed having his "fur" stroked. If I would put my hand in his cage, he would lift up his front legs so that I could slide my hand under, and then he would climb up onto my hand.
When my daughter was in high school, she had a lab rat named Dweezil. He would sit on her shoulder, licking her ear and grooming her hair while she studied. Once, when we all had to go out of town for a few days, she left Dweezil with her friend Mike. During the night, Mike was awakened by a loud crash, but then went back to sleep. He woke up in the morning with a rat curled up in his arm pit. It seem that Dweezil, being lonely, had shoved the top off of his cage, climbed out, and gone looking for company.
I was caregiver to my mother and her cat. Abbie definitely loves me. After my mother's passing, when I would visit, Abbie would cuddle. When I finally got up to leave, she grabbed my leg with her arms and claws. It broke my heart!
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/animal-minds-211125
Mammals produce oxytocin. Dogs and cats can produce oxytocin while interacting with one another, as well as other animals. Given that humanity domesticated dogs and cats eons ago, it makes sense that they get a hit of oxytocin when interacting with people.
So, affection, yeah. But love? That's a bit more problematic. I suppose it would depend on how the individual defines "love". Furthermore, it would depend greatly on how one views intelligence.
Dogs and cats do have a concept of self. But it's not nearly as advanced as ours, or that of gorillas/dolphins. And again, dogs/cats currently exist because of many, many years of unnatural selection.
I dunno. To say with certainty "my pet LOVES me" seems very anthropocentric—it says more about humans than their pets.
HogboblinZwei - Humanity did domesticate dogs, but it is much more likely that cats domesticated themselves, and not until dogs had already been with us for thousands of years. When humans adopted agriculture, they began to store grain, The grain attracted rodents, and cats quickly learned where to find an easy meal.
@GreatHornedOwl
That makes a good amount of sense. I haven't read much regarding cats, so I appreciate your sharing that!
it is much more likely that cats domesticated themselves
@GreatHornedOwl In addition, I think that cats also domesticated humans.
@JoyfulHeart - I think you've got right. The cat's view is to place everything in the world into one of four categories. In descending order of the cat's idea of importance, those four categories are: 1. Self 2. Food 3. Servant (i.e. humans) 4. Kitty toy
@HogboblinZwei when you dedicate so much of your life to looking after a pet, it's a nice thought that they love you as much as you love them. My pup certainly cares about me- when I'm sad he knows, and he cuddles close and comforts me. We play together, he enjoys it when I'm nearby, he comes to me even when I don't have food or toys, and just sits with me. Is it love? Probably not, in the strictest sense of the word, according to a modern Western perspective, but considering the ancient Greeks defined at least eight different types of love, I think we can accommodate the belief that our pets love us.
@BuggleBear
Eh, it just seems to me that some people need the idea that their pet loves them back. It only benefits them. A dog will stick around with a person who abuses it. Is that a toxic kind of love?
I don't think so. Our species has simply dominated another species for a very, very long time.
@HogboblinZwei I said in my post that it's a nice thought that your pet loves you as much as you love them.
I also questioned whether what my dog has with me is love in his part, and said that no, if you base it on the complexity of human emotional range, it's probably not. But he isn't a human, he is a dog, so who is to say that what he feels for me isn't love, in his terms?
Also, it's nonsense to say that it only benefits the person. If someone believes that an animal loves them back, as much as they love the animal, they are more inclined to spend time and resources on maintaining the animal's care and happiness, thus benefitting the animal.
Basically, why does it matter to you if people want to believe that their pet loves them back? Does it harm you somehow if people want to believe that their pet reciprocates feelings of love?
"Basically, why does it matter to you if people want to believe that their pet loves them back? Does it harm you somehow if people want to believe that their pet reciprocates feelings of love?"
Because people believe all sorts of ridiculous things, and in the case of lesser animals, it very often results in the creature being mistreated.
Having cared for abused dogs (via a foster program), I'm somewhat familiar with the horrific things people can do to their dogs out of a "love" that is totally 100% mutual.
My issue, you see, is with people who have a sickening need for living life accessories. People who "just know" things that they can't know, because they have some void in their life that only a ball of fur can fill.
@HogboblinZwei so because in a few isolated cases, animals are mistreated, you think it's OK to scorn people's belief that their pet might reciprocally care about them?
You do understand that animals are mistreated far more regularly due to apathy or boredom or because someone has malicious intent?
As for them being 'living life accessories', that is both rude and untrue. You've implied that anyone that had a pet is some kind of pathetically misguided individual that is both so lonely and so self important that they feel the right to keep an animal to serve their own purposes, because they can't make friends or have relationships based on two people interacting as equals.
My dog is not an accessory to me. He does not 'fill a void' in my life, he enhances what pleasure I already gain from my surroundings, and he benefits from it too. We enjoy walks together, we have nice cuddles, we are company for each other. We have a mutual respect and understanding.
@BuggleBear: I don't understand. Are you saying that a false idea which has had harmful results more than just once or twice is exempt from criticism because it feels nice to believe and isn't always harmful?
It is a pleasing (false) thought. And it is possible to believe it without being the kind of person Zwei objects to.
But if someone is that kind of person, and has this belief on top of it—well, that's a perfect storm, isn't it? Better to criticize the belief, point out its flaws, shatter the illusion, and what's been lost? Only a lie. A pretty one! But still.
And you can always suspend disbelief every now and then if you want to, even so.
After all: you're not that kind of person. It's not like you're in any danger of pampering your pet to death because you "just know" it loves you when you do.
I'm bored of having this conversation. It's clear neither of you understand what it's like to care about a pet, and I also don't care if I am the kind of person anyone 'objects to'.
Pretty sad that a couple of nihilists feel the need to tear down anyone's beliefs when they don't agree with them, especially when those beliefs give people comfort.
"...you think it's OK to scorn people's belief that their pet might reciprocally care about them?"
I think it's okay to be critical of ideas that don't carry weight, yeah. I'm not saying that having a pet can't be a wonderful, lovely time. I'm fond of realism, though. And I'm fond of animals.
"You do understand that animals are mistreated far more regularly due to apathy or boredom or because someone has malicious intent?"
What? No way. I had absolutely no idea. Not even the foggiest of notions.
"As for them being 'living life accessories', that is both rude and untrue."
...right. You see, in the final paragraph of my last post, I said—hold on, just a second, where is it, aha—"My issue, you see, is with people who have a sickening need for living life accessories."
In that sentence, I'm referring to a very specific group of people. Namely, a group of people who see their pets as life accessories. Do all people do this? No, not at all.
But those people do exist. And those people often do horrible things out of a "love" that is mutual, that they are certain exists.
"My dog is not an accessory to me. He does not 'fill a void' in my life, he enhances what pleasure I already gain from my surroundings, and he benefits from it too. "
That's awesome! Really, it's grand. I'm not being sarcastic, I promise. Again, my issue is with a belief that can cause harm. A belief that does cause harm. A belief perpetuated by humans, that benefits human egos, that can, and does, harm lesser animals.
Like, for real. Human "love" can make a dog morbidly obese. There are individuals who immediately "fall in love" with a puppy, and then cut off its ears or tail. Some idiots in happy, loving relationships with their dog might think it's a super neato idea to dye their dog's fur with chemicals that irritate its skin. Etc, etc.
Right, so because those f***ing morons exist, people that don't do all that can't believe that their pets love them? WTF...
