@UCpaaHVg6u0: Can't speak to the why of it, but I can definitely say that pre-Covid I didn't have the trouble with my lungs, joints, and energy levels I have now.
Never tried to pick up a mug of tea and felt pain like I was trying to do it with a broken wrist pre-Covid.
Never had my knees give out on me pre-Covid.
Never had trouble breathing without coughing, or getting too tired to move after going down (and then up) eight steps to check the mail pre-Covid.
I'm 32; nobody in my family ever had problems like this at my age. There's no history of it.
I wear wrist braces now. I move slowly. I feel old. And when the weather changes, I feel it in almost every joint. This isn't normal for me. It's not normal for anyone in my family under the age of 70 (we're a long-lived and healthy bunch). So what caused it?
I know it's post hoc, but all I have to point to is the Covid. It was relatively mild, and the problems didn't start until a couple weeks after I felt better, but nothing else was different!
I was active, man. I worked out every day.
And now this.
@DaringSprinter I don't deny that you are suffering something. I am very sorry that you have lost facility, and it is real. After my experience with Covid, I don't think my ability to smell has completely returned. Apparently there are support cells involved that Covid affected. There is hope that I can return to being able to smell. The issue is being able to demonstrate that there are physical changes which are measurable. The anecdotal reports of experiences do not necessarily corroborate well. That failure does not negate the truth you are telling. If we are open to telling our truth the way we see it, then the floodgates will spill out all manners of stories, and the efforts to keep posts in line with evidentiary science will fall by the wayside. Half of us will be snorting ivermectin instead of advocating the boosters.
@UCpaaHVg6u0: I hear you. The CDC and NHS seem to think there's enough evidence to conclude long Covid is a thing, though, even if it's not well understood yet. To quote Charles Bangham, Professor of Immunology at Imperial College London:
It is now apparent that Long Covid is far too common to be wholly due to psychosomatic factors. But it is still unclear whether there is one underlying mechanism of Long Covid, or whether it is a collection of different conditions. If we were to use Occam's Razor – that is, that often the simplest explanation is the best route to the truth – it is clear that infection with Covid-19 is a necessary precipitating cause. What additional role pre-existing conditions and genetics play have still to be established.
Is there any point in saying "we don't fully understand it, so it doesn't exist"?
Saying Covid infection can have long term side effects in some people seems fundamentally different from claims that drinking bleach or taking horse dewormer cures illness in humans.
Covid affects everyone differently. Some people never catch it at all even after being exposed to it. My grandfather was infected and my grandmother tested negative even though she slept next to him. This was in 2020 before there were vaccines.
@DaringSprinter I am inclined to think there is such a thing as "long Covid", and I am a person who thinks many people think they have a health problem when they do not. That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee. Nevertheless, as a layperson who has had an atypical/unusual health history and reads some medical stuff, I have a feeling Covid is "making it easier" or something for other health problems to manifest/take hold.
I certainly don't want anyone to take this too much to heart and I don't want to refute/discount what the medical establishment is saying. I just think it's kinda early in the game to settle firmly on an opinion one way or the other, at least for me.
It's my understanding that Guilliain-Barre syndrome is often preceded by a viral infection that is not considered significant at the time. Of course, this is just one example. And there are what...a gazillion diseases?
My cousin had Guillain-Barre. They initially tried to tell his mom they thought he was drunk. Fortunately it was diagnosed in time and he is healthy today. He has not mentioned noticing lasting effects. This is off-topic, but thought it might be of interest to a few.
And there is a reason they call it "practice" medicine.
From a statistical point of view I think group gatherings are much more risky than one on one cuddle sessions. I never once caught Covid from a cuddle session but I did get sick from a cuddle party I went to last year (I tested negative for Covid twice but my symptoms were very Covid-like.) And then I caught Covid after celebrating Christmas Eve with my family and I know I caught it from them because several other family members also found out they had it in the days following that event. Yet I have hundreds of cuddle sessions a year and don’t catch covid from those. And yes I did the responsible thing and canceled my sessions and made sure not to give it to any of my clients.
@achetocuddle: Heh. Solid points.
Being as "a related coronavirus that caused the far smaller SARS outbreaks between 2002-2004 showed signs of causing similar long term problems that left some people unable to work for up to 36 months after infection," and being as I sure expected to be able to lift that mug, take that step, reach behind me, take a walk, take a breath....
Well, I'm going to go with "definitely not my imagination" and "Occam's Razor says this probably isn't being caused by aliens, unusually vicious pollen, or my body spontaneously deciding to break down for no reason—it's probably that illness I had that the experts think causes this sort of thing in some people, even if they don't know exactly how it does it."
Your hypothesis (that Covid might make it easier for things to go wrong that wouldn't have otherwise) is definitely one the experts are considering.
However it does it, it certainly does it. Though not to everyone (thank goodness)!
What @DaringSprinter is saying rings true to me and he has credibility with me due to his many posts on other threads. I don't always agree with him, but that is beside the point and sure doesn't make him wrong. But he is a critical thinker, I believe, and seems to be trying to remain objective about his situation. I hope the docs figure out a way to alleviate it quickly without side effects. I keep forgetting how young you are. I hate this for you regardless.
In re-reading my last post here, I realize I need to explain that I think it is early to think that there definitely is not such a thing as "long Covid". Most people will not get Covid or just a mild case. The people with the worst experience in most things tends to be a minority. That can make it hard for those people to be heard and treated appropriately.
I'm not much on championing anything, I just have a gut feeling about this.
Regarding fibromyalgia and long COVID: the controversy around fibromyalgia (FM) is not whether some people suffer long term widespread persistent pain for which there is no explanation, it’s whether there is a distinct single condition “fibromyalgia” or not. FM is still accepted as a diagnosis for widespread persistent pain for which we don’t have an explanation. I’ve worked with a considerable number of people diagnosed with FM over the past 30 years and I stay relatively current on the research. I’m well aware of the controversies. I no longer use the term & prefer the descriptive “widespread chronic pain” but patients are still being given a diagnosis of FM by reputable pain clinics.
As for “long COVID,” the CDC recognizes that some people who have been infected with COVID suffer symptoms that persist weeks, months, even years after the infection has passed. The long term symptoms can be quite varied, ranging from feeling fog headed, fatigued, respiratory symptoms, neurological symptoms, persistent pain, GI distress, and other symptoms. We know that the infection itself can do damage to lungs, heart, blood vessels, liver, kidneys, and even the brain. Some recent research suggests that in some individuals low levels of the virus remains and it’s possible that may be one cause. Damage done by the initial infection may be another.
The point of all of this is that it is not unscientific to refer to long COVID, post COVID conditions, or the other many other names given to the various symptoms experienced by some individuals. Neither is it unscientific to refer to fibromyalgia. Both fall into the category of we acknowledge a condition but don’t know exactly what is going on and this is the name we’re giving it until we have a better understanding of it.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/index.html
The evidence for long COVID is not purely anecdotal. There is enough evidence at this point that the existence of long term symptoms is not controversial, it’s the etiology that is not understood, that is all.
This is a systematic review and meta analysis published in the highly respected journal Nature in August, 2021, that identified the symptoms most often associated with long COVID. Full text available.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95565-8?s=08
Lots of people have lingering effects from issues that develop as a result of covid . I wouldn't call that long covid ,.though some people might be inclined to .
Also re testing as I have heard it brought up in several posts.. if it is in incubating period, you wont test positive. Thats why they say to wait several days after exposure before you test. I was sick and showing symptoms not long ago . I had been directly exposed to someone who was positive. I tested and was negative. Employee health told me to come back two days later to retest. I did and was positive.
It’s hard to know at this point how many cases there are because those who test at home don’t get included in the statistics. The number of people hospitalized and/or the number of deaths is at least measurable.
Thank you, @achetocuddle, @Babichev.
@pmvines: I'm sure once we're able to pick out which problems are directly caused by Covid and which are only indirectly caused, there'll be more precise terminology. For now, I think "long Covid" and "post Covid" and all that works just fine for all of it.
@pmvines I don't really call it anything either, just borrowed a phrase that seems to be in use. I do wish I my vocab would come to my aid more often. Lol. Glad you posted and also reminded/informed people about testing.
@pmvines, another thing about covid testing that doesn't seem to be common knowledge is...a negative at home test DOES NOT mean you don't have covid if you have symptoms. A negative result must be confirmed with a PCR test if you have symptoms.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/testing/self-testing.html
"Should I trust the results of a self-test?
Positive results from self-tests are highly reliable.
Negative results from self-tests do not rule out SARS-CoV-2 infection. A negative self-test result may not be reliable, especially if you have symptoms associated with COVID-19."
@Cuddle_RN yes, I have heard that too re the home tests lacking accuracy. I did the PCR in employee health x 2, with the first one being negative. By the time i got results from my second test I was already feeling better too.
You can also test positive for up to a month after having had covid , so even testing to see if you are negative yet isnt always accurate . That's why the time line and being aware of symptoms is important.
Stay home if you're feeling sick. Wear a mask if you're visiting a hospital or somebody who is immunocompromised. All a test does is tell you what you were at the time you took the test. That can change by tomorrow.
Even though it seems we are at a comfortable place now with covid , I've still seen people my age and younger who have died or had their health permanently altered because of covid . That's why I get upset when I see people be willfully ignorant about it . I have gotten to a point where I have mostly resumed normalcy, but I think its important to not downplay or minimize the danger of covid and its legacy.
It takes a few days to get results from a PCR testing center. Anything can change in the meantime, so I wouldn't use those results for anything other than curiosity.
I believe in long covid, or whatever we want to call it. I am just curious why we are inclined to believe (and allow the telling of) people's individual experiences with that, but if anyone claims a serious health reaction to the vaccine, that is discounted or banned. All experiences should be looked at and permitted, or none should be (I am an advocate for all).
@ubergigglefritz: I think it's 'cause doctors and researchers confirm long Covid is reasonably common, but extreme reactions to the vaccine... not so much. Yes, there are links in the sentence above. Two, in fact. They're the words in blue.
@ubergigglefritz - As an actuary, you certainly aware that statistics can never definitively prove any kind of a cause any effect relationship. Statistics can only indicate both a probability that such a relationship exists, and a confidence level for that probability.
For the sake of argument, let's assume two scenarios:
In scenario #1,10,000 people develop symptoms of long Covid, and in 9,900 (99%) of the instances, the symptoms are reported after having Covid.
In scenario #2, 100 people develop symptoms of a severe reaction, and in 99 (99%) of the instances, the symptoms are reported after having a Covid vaccine.
Both scenarios, would indicate a 99% probability that there is a cause and effect relationship. However, in scenario #1, we would have a very high level confidence that the indication is true. Whereas, in scenario #2, the much smaller sample size would leave us with a much lower level confidence that the indication is true.
@DaringSprinter - For once, I agree with you about something. Long Covid certainly appears to be a real thing. Hopefully, those of you who are suffering from it, will eventually recover.
I don't wish to be banned, so I don't want to have an argument about it (I'm going to screenshot this, because I'm sure it will be edited). I know of someone directly whose experience gives me personal strong evidence to have reason to believe that the government is not paying attention to reactions to even find out the true statistical reality of potential reactions (numbers, risk factors, etc). If they were, they would be eagerly and willingly taking all information of all people in the hospital immediately following the vaccine or even those who believe they have experienced long term effects, as opposed to shrugging people off and telling them they're fine. Science is about exploring questions, not about doing one study and calling it done forever. I am ok with knowing you don't agree with me.
I graduated cum laude with a math major and a psychology minor and passed three actuarial exams before I decided I would rather have a life, lol. So I have qualifications in both numbers and the human psyche. 😆 My experiences have molded my belief biases just as your experiences have molded your belief biases. We're all biased. We're all human. We're all doing the best we can with the information we have. I believe your story just as I believe all the other stories I have heard. I think all stories should be considered so we can be open to the truth. That's the only point I'm trying to make. I do understand @GreatHornedOwl 's point, but since we as a country are not even accepting the possibility of effects, to explore the meaning behind people's experiences, and whether there IS anything to be measured, I can't really know what the true numbers are.
At the end of the day, all I hope is for everyone to be ok, no matter their choices in life around this issue. I hope for excellent treatments, to figure out how to help those with long covid symptoms, and for those who take more risks to also be ok. 💜 I take covid seriously, but I'm also not afraid to ask questions and to listen to those who are being ignored. When I see groups of people being ignored by those in power, I don't say "trust the science", I ask "why?" 🤔
You're entitled to your opinion, @ubergigglefritz , and that's not something we ban folks around here for - re-read the TOS and forum rules. Vaccinations save lives. Covid-19 vaccinations do NOT prevent Covid-19 - they were never built or designed or meant to. Covid-19 vaccinations were created to facilitate our immune system's response, which means by default, by definition, they were created to CAUSE reactions and Covid-19 symptoms, which for the grand majority of the population have been safe. The GOAL for Covid-19 vaccinations is to keep the population from flooding our healthcare system from severe Covid-19 symptoms that require medical support. There are risks to any vaccination. There are some who have experienced severe reactions to Covid-19 vaccinations, up to and including death. Studies are still in progress for those who have experienced Covid-19, vaccinated or not, and still have primary, secondary, or additional symptoms. Science IS about exploring questions, and also providing answers when additional information is known. [-Sid]
I'm just glad everything is completely back to normal. I never want to hear the term "social distancing" again.
So if someone graduates magma cum laude in Business they can now say math and actuaries are wrong and don’t look at everything and are completely biased and inaccurate. And an art history major knows more about psychology than a psychologist. These are important breakthroughs.
I just wanna know why the FDA wanted deny a request to expedite a release of all the documents it reviewed to approve covid vaccines / why they had to get sued by the Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency to do so, why in response to the lawsuit they proposed only releasing 500 pages per month which would have allowed the FDA a full 55 to 75 years to fully release everything but than was court ordered to immediately release 12,000 pages as well as 55,000 pages per month until all documents are released …
Edit: I also would like to know why the head of the largest pharmaceutical company in Spain (which was researching covid vaccines) did not make headlines in the u.s. after being cought with a fake vaccine card.
@FunCartel I don't understand where your conclusion came from at all. I don't wish to engage in an argument without respect and compassion. I was just sharing my perspective. I was only providing my educational background to indicate that I do have some education / knowledge in the subject I was talking about. Nowhere did I indicate anything regarding my knowledge compared to anyone else in the world. Have a great day. I'm happy to engage with anyone who will respond respectfully and not simply resort to reductio ad absurdum fallacies. I am a very inquisitive critical thinking person who loves to discuss and ask questions to inspire continued thought, but I also know when a conversation won't go anywhere.
@cuddles_ndream That is a legitimate question and while the surface excuse is lame and the 75 years is BS, it does take a while to vet and edit patent and patent pending information. But at a time like this the need for transparency is vital.
@ubergigglefritz Yep.
@FunCartel that would’ve been an appropriate reasoning (the 1 you mentioned), but they mentioned only having a staff of 10 and not having the man power to release more than 500 pages a month, they did not say they needed to edit patent & patent pending information. The fact that they denied it & refused to give any response until actually being sued was very concerning. 500 pages a month equals nearly 17 pages a day which they say a staff of 10 can’t handle (1 page over that), & this is assuming they are printing each page, or using a type writer, even using a type writer that is ridiculous.
@cuddles_ndream please cite a reputable source.