@slowblink I have mastered Captain Kirk's ability to make computers explode by talking to them.
@DaringSprinter I'm glad the data around those surgeries is finally being disseminated so we can prevent any more trans individuals suffering by going down that treacherous route. Admittedly, I'm not up to par with the latest treatments within the space and, for that, I apologize.
Lol yea the movie was probably being a movie but, the concept is so great that it always has plausible deniability. Assuming it had meaning, I think that was the most important moment in the trilogy. It proved that nothing can be proved....it is similar in importance to the little kid bending the spoon at the oracle's house in the first movie. It isn't the spoon that bends but you....because reality is defined by you.
lol...that kid used the purple-ist of prose to tell Neo to get bent
@slowblink: Unexplode your brain.
Dreams are physical. Your brain is physical; the chemicals in it are physical; the electricity in it is physical; the neurons are physical; the connections are physical.
The internet is also physical. The screen you're looking at is physical. And so on.
If you think you're eating an apple, the connections in your brain forming that image are physical. They're the same amount of physical even if there isn't actually any apple—the difference is that your stomach won't get any apple in it. If all your food is like that (imaginary), eventually you won't be imagining anything, and other people's brains will be physically connecting in ways that form the image (and smell) of your dead body.
As reality goes, that's pretty solid.
In a dream, if you fool yourself into thinking you're eating an apple, it'll actually fill your dream stomach. Good luck with that in reality.
@zerocantaloupe haha if only sentinels could be paralyzed by logical fallacies, we could all be The One.
@slowblink says, "I'm glad the data around those surgeries is finally being disseminated so we can prevent any more trans individuals suffering by going down that treacherous route."
This seems to be a response to
[T]he treatment for gender dysphoria isn't conversion therapy because that doesn't work.
...but it can't be, can it?
guess I failed to land this doozie of a plane
@DaringSprinter lol you never give up. In the words of Austin Powers: "Why won't you die?" lol. But seriously, Daring, have you ever taken psilocybin mushrooms(magic mushrooms)? If you haven't, do it and then we can talk about 'objective' reality. If you have then you must be playing the devil's advocate at this point. It isn't about what is or isn't physical...it is strictly about perception. If the brain can fool itself(and it can) into thinking it is in a real world, then a real world can't be proven to exist because we only perceive reality through our brains. How do you know this isn't a dream right now. You don't.
In the words of Austin Powers: "Why won't you die?" lol.
@slowblink: Drugs have a physical effect on your physical brain. Me, I like my brain the way it is.
My partner has had magic mushrooms, and his take is the same as mine. You do know perception is physical, yeah? In that sense, sure, what you hallucinate is real: it's really a hallucination. There are really things really happening in your actual brain.
But they're not happening in the real world. An imagined apple is not a real apple, and it won't do anything for your real stomach.
@DaringSprinter
This seems to be a response to [T]he treatment for gender dysphoria isn't conversion therapy because that doesn't work. ...but it can't be, can it?
Sorry, I super skimmed that article you linked and assumed it was about gender reassignment surgery(which also doesn't work) not gay conversion therapy which I think we all know is paramount to psychological torture at this point. I assumed that because within the analogy we were discussing, conversion therapy doesn't parallel to liposuction as a failed physical solution.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence
btw, how are you hyperlinking through text?
@DaringSprinter Well, as far as our reality debate goes, I have said everything that can be said. We have to agree to disagree then.
@zerocantaloupe I hope you know the Austin Powers quote was a joke.
@slowblink Put the text you want in square brackets followed immediately by the URL in parentheses.
@slowblink Yeah, I saw the movie (or is it? 🤔). But trans/nonbinary people face an always-simmering threat of violence, so comparing winning an argument to killing someone isn’t cool in this case. Or honestly ever
@zerocantaloupe thank you, kindly.
@zerocantaloupe umm, the jest had nothing to do with trans/nonbinary people and everything to do with making what may be perceived as an intenses argument between me and Daring lively. It could only be perceived negatively if someone could honestly assume that I actually mean harm upon Daring, who I don't know at all(which includes whether or not they are trans or not).
@slowblink
A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1%. [source]
99% success seems pretty successful to me. What the Heritage Foundation has to say on this seems about as solid to me as what they have to say about climate change.
Anorexia (typically) requires a brain solution. Dysphoria (typically) requires a body solution. As I said before, doctors like to use solutions that work.
In-text links work like this:
[your text here](yourlinkhere)
Edit: And dang, a lot happens when you're trying to figure out how to disable Markdown for one line! (It's a backslash. A backslash does that.)
@zerocantaloupe: Thanks much for coming to my defense! I don't feel super threatened—annoying though I may be, I doubt I'm important enough to anyone to be worth a jail sentence. Unless they know me in person, see me on the bus regularly, think they can get away with it....
Anyhow, a meme's a meme. We're cool on that score, @slowblink.
All this over a bunch of bad sequels (objectively). Lol
@slowblink - Truth and dream and opinion are all man-made terms, but many philosophers and clergymen believe there is an objective truth outside of human conception.
Or: A tree falls in the forest, and no person is there to listen. Is there sound?
@DaringSprinter the problem with the study you linked is it is a compilation of various studies conducted over a significant period of time with different methodologies. The assumption is that all these methodologies are sound which can only be checked by the meticulous analysis of each one which will take time. What I've noticed in my previous analysis of similar studies is that often the amount of people who respond after the follow up period(which itself is highly variable) is drastically less than the individuals who started the study. As you can imagine, individuals with crippling regret fueled depression would have little interest in following up about a decision they now ultimately lament while those who have no regrets would be happy to. Studies have no ethical way of mitigating this bias but still publish anyway and so one has to be thorough in their analysis of the methodologies in it. I will randomly pick five, analyze them, and get back to you.
@slowblink I’m ok with the re-doing philosophy from first principles part of this thread, but I’m starting to suspect that someone watched Matt Walsh’s “What is a Woman” and is trying to sneakily parrot its talking points now.
@slowblink: Hmm. Your argument seems to be
• people who compile studies don't check the methodology of the studies they're relying on for their conclusions • and even if they did it wouldn't matter because people who regret a thing don't give the people who ask "do you regret it?" the answer.
• people who compile studies don't check the methodology of the studies they're relying on for their conclusions
• and even if they did it wouldn't matter because people who regret a thing don't give the people who ask "do you regret it?" the answer.
Well... if you're serious about looking for truth, the study I linked to has a full list of 49 sources at the end. You can also check these out:
Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes (2021)
What Does the Scholarly Research Say about the Effect of Gender Transition on Transgender Well-Being?, (2018)
Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment, (2014).
You might also look into how many people regret boob jobs, nose jobs, etc.
@cylee1180: I admit, I never understood the hype about that tree-falling-in-a-forest question. It creates pressure waves in the air and through the ground. No eardrums vibrate; no auditory cortex is activated.
The word assigned or not assigned—whether you say it's sound or not—doesn't change any of that.
@DaringSprinter I sometimes forget about the egregious commodification of empirical information. Out of 49 studies, only 8 were free and of those only 2(38. & 41.) were specifically about patient satisfaction post-GAS. This means, even if the studies methodologies can be agreed to be sound, that is only 2 out of 49 and nowhere near enough confirmation to be able to say the entire study can be trusted. This also doesn't mean it cannot be trusted. Essentially, we are at an impasse relative to the validity of this study and moving past it depends on capital investment which in and of itself is a tragedy as these are the conversations that need to be had. Studies in question listed below. I listed all the one's with a "PMC Free Article" link under. The rest are paywalled.
Schechter LS. Gender confirmation surgery: an update for the primary care provider. Transgend Health. 2016; 1:32–40
Lane M, Ives GC, Sluiter EC, et al.. Trends in gender-affirming surgery in insured patients in the United States. Plast Reconstr Surg Glob Open. 2018; 6:e1738.
Rider GN, Mcmorris BJ, Gower AL, et al.. Health and care utilization of transgender and gender nonconforming youth: a population-based study
Liberati A, Altman DG, Tetzlaff J, et al.. The PRISMA statement for reporting systematic reviews and meta-analyses of studies that evaluate health care interventions: explanation and elaboration. PLoS Med. 2009; 6
Nyaga VN, Arbyn M, Aerts M. Metaprop: a Stata command to perform meta-analysis of binomial data. Arch Public Health. 2014; 72:39.
Olson-Kennedy J, Warus J, Okonta V, et al.. Chest reconstruction and chest dysphoria in transmasculine minors and young adults: comparisons of nonsurgical and postsurgical cohorts. JAMA Pediatr. 2018; 172:431–436
Garcia MM, Christopher NA, De Luca F, et al.. Overall satisfaction, sexual function, and the durability of neophallus dimensions following staged female to male genital gender confirming surgery: the Institute of Urology, London U.K. experience. Transl Androl Urol. 2014; 3:156–162
Judge C, O’Donovan C, Callaghan G, et al.. Gender dysphoria – prevalence and co-morbidities in an Irish adult population. Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2014; 5:87.
not only did i not land the plane, but it's going off into space
@zerocantaloupe people are free to suspect what they want to suspect so it isn't my desire to dissuade them from their beliefs...but you know what they say about assumptions.
@slowblink: You want a twelve-foot ladder. If that doesn't bypass the paywall, it's perfectly legal to contact the researchers directly and flatter them with your desire to read their work! The paywalls don't benefit them.
You can also try Sci-Hub, though of course you shouldn't. The state of information accessibility today is terrible.
Sci-Hub is
@DaringSprinter I wouldn't call it hype, but I think it simplifies a concept in a simple riddle. Saves a lot of space too! Lol. But maybe it's only simple bc we agree on a common truth...or do we....or is there...
Also, what if we reject the red and blue pill, is there a purple pill?
also all this serious argumentation about trans stuff is harshing my philosophical skepticism buzz, man