I’m working on being kind, being patient and not caring at all, all at once.
@sillysassy
Terms like "Your truth" or "Agree to disagree" are ways of saying, "I don't want to think about this anymore and I don't want to argue."
I had to take a deep breath before tackling a rhetorical perspective on this post because it was fraught with complications. But I admire your willingness to inch into this subject matter with trepidation. This isn't easy stuff to talk about.
@sillysassy I don't have time to write more right now, but just wanted to say that really resonates with me, about ontological arrogance.
A few thoughts:
On misconceptions around the term "toxic masculinity":
the phrase and concept of "toxic masculinity" does not indicate that all masculinity is toxic. Toxic is an adjective that is acting as a modifier on the concept of masculinity - it means we are talking about a very specific presentation of what it means to masculine that has acted in a way that is toxic to humanity as a whole, causing harm to people of all genders including to the people who embody that version of masculinity.
The only people throwing around the term "toxic masculinity" to refer to all men are, ironically, the people arguing against using the term. If we wanted to say "the concept of masculinity is toxic, period, and needs to be erased", we would say that. Instead, we are saying "this specific presentation of masculinity has been historically harmful, and deserves to be examined and discussed." It is no more different than if we were to discuss and differentiate between say unethical organized religion and just organized religion. Both the concepts of masculinity and organized religion are in and of themselves benign - they are descriptors of how we humans identify and group ourselves in varying ways. But "toxic" and "unethical" are modifiers that mean we are talking about specific instances or versions, not the categories as a whole.
On the "everyone is human" argument:
there is a hypocritical paradox to the idea that idea since discussing toxic masculinity is supposedly invalidating to men, we should instead focus on erasing the concept of gender or on "everyone is human". In the very act of dismissing the concept that some forms of enforced masculinity have been harmful to not only women, but also to men and those outside the gender binary, you are in fact invalidating their lived experience and telling them that "nah, forget about it because we're just all human and we need to move forward."
We invalidate men and further perpetuate the harm of toxic masculinity by denying its effects on people. Just because you do not feel you have been negatively impacted by expected gender roles does not mean someone else has not.
On subjective vs. objective reality:
when discussing people's experiences, reality, and "truth", we get into very murky water in claiming that there is some form of completely objective reality/truth separate from the experiences of the humans involved. Our reality, individually and collectively, is entirely shaped and limited by our ability to perceive it. While materialistically there may exist a reality that is completely untouched by human biases and perception - the very fact that it is not perceived by us means it is inaccessible and therefore irrelevant to any sort of philosophical discussion on what "really" happens between multiple humans. Human reality is only subjective, and while we can strive to get as close to objectivity as we might through collection of multiple subjective datas - we cannot ever fully remove our perception from the equation.
To claim that there's "your truth, my truth, and what really happened/THE truth" is naive at best, and at worst is an attempt to invalidate or gaslight the other person's lived experience simply because you do not agree with it. Can subjective perception of events be inaccurate based off of the observations of others present? Sure. Many things impact perception, and recollection is imperfect. But that does not change that it is their reality, not yours, and you cannot tell them what it is because you did not live in their body and mind with their senses, past experiences, and thoughts as context. So please be careful of saying things like "your truth" and "your reality" when having a debate, because it is belittling and invalidating even if unintentional.
On the role of social media in this discussion:
Hate to break it to you, but the term "toxic masculinity" is from the 1980s, so far older than social media. The concept of examining harmful gender stereotypes and feminism are even older than that - try ancient Greece at least 😂.
I would hazard a guess that most people in this thread, and that are publicly debating this topic these days, only know the term "toxic masculinity" because of the influence of social media - not because they studied gender studies, women's history, feminist philosophy, or have done journalism on those topics. Because until social media picked up on the term during the Me Too movement, the term was relatively unknown in mainstream discussions.
What social media has done is acted as a mass information highway and equalized the access to peer-reviewed research and esoteric philosophy that normally would have been inaccessible to most people. Thanks to social media, we not only get to view copies of the research, but we get a wide variety of commentary on the research that breaks it down for lay people into more digestible and easier to grasp concepts for people who do not have advanced degrees in the fields mentioned above.
Social Media is nothing but a tool, like any tool to be used for good or ill by the hands it's in. It is your choice whether or not you decide to learn the skills to use and understand it, misuse it, or avoid it. But don't go blaming the tool for your lack of skills or understanding.
I'm processing (not ignoring...) all this beautiful information. Thank you for sharing! 😊
I just call it nasty a**hole behavior regardless of gender
Ok. I know it has been a minute.... I have wanted to come back and discuss this a little more but I haven't wanted to be quick or trite in my responses. Thank you so much for everyone being willing to share their comments and experience. I am very grateful to you all.
@PeopleLikeUs
This isn't easy stuff to talk about. I'm with you in this difficult conversation. It needs to be had with love and understanding.
I appreciate you stating this and I agree. It is amazing how many people don't want to have painful conversations like this, so thank you all. In a real way. This topic comes up in my life practically every day with people I am close to as well as strangers and new acquaintainces.
@cuddlefaery you mentioned this
This seems to have been a real problematic statement as it created some large misunderstandings of what my words were trying to express. I don't use that terminology to be dismissive of someone's experience or to say "I don't want to think about this anymore and I don't want to argue."
Let me try again.
My 18 year old son has a blanket that he's had since he was a baby. It is extremely soft on one side and the other side is a bit rough and nubby. He says "Mom, this is the most comforting blanket because of the nubby texture!" When I say "I love the soft side... I feel like THAT is really comforting." He absolutely refuses to believe I could think the soft side was the comforting side.
This is what I mean when I say "my truth, your truth, and the truth" MY truth, soft fabric is comforting. HIS truth, nubby fabric is comforting. THE truth, fabric creates different feelings based upon the sensory perception of each person.
Here's another one that was an old tape in my head. Far more painful than a blanket but was a BIG part of my growth these last few years. My truth I won't be worth loving if I'm not pretty enough His truth I don't like the way you look and especially not those big boobs THE truth I am not going to be everyone's cup of tea but my value as a person isn't based on my looks.
Plenty of people have their opinions and experience but just because THEY believe it is the RIGHT way to think or the CORRECT idea doesn't make it so. It's just their opinion. THEIR TRUTH. I'm not going to deny his right to prefer small boobs asthetically, but it doesn't make it a universal truth and it certainly doesn't make me unloveable.
(This is probably going to turn into a disaster because I said the word boobs, but it is the example..... sigh)
It is in fact the OPPOSITE of what @cuddlefaery is understanding me to say. Instead, I am wholeheartedly saying "You are the only person who can know your experience." Denying someone's experience is ABSOLUTELY the last thing I ever want to do.
Its for this exact reason that I say "thank you for your honesty" or "thank you for speaking your truth" because I think it is POSSIBLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING for people to believe that their lived experience matters. My perception is 100% just that..... only my perception of MY experience.
Somehow, my words are not conveying my thoughts very well and its probably because I'm just not quite as good at this part. Especially when I am thinking in so many directions about something and I don't get everything out on paper.
@cuddlefaery you said
you are in fact invalidating their lived experience and telling them that "nah, forget about it because we're just all human and we need to move forward."
I 100% do not believe this and instead am trying to say "There has been a sh!t ton of damage done because of awful ideas. We are all human beings and deserve to be loved and valued instead of accepting toxic behavior as the norm."
I also never said that I haven't experienced or been negatively impacted by expected gender roles and in fact my entire life has been filled with destructive patterns because of notions perpetuated by the ideas presented in the patriarchy. My whole life was spent striving for perfection so I could be worth loving from controlling, selfish, manipulations of men AND organized religion.... So, no I'm not interested in continuing such an awful system of gender roles or thought processes.
Instead, I align with the idea
"Patriarchy has created an amputated existence" which affects the both men and women.
This last week I spent so many hours just repeating a phrase as simple as "you are beautiful to me, even if you aren't perfect." One of the biggest detriments I have seen this past few weeks comes from negative effects of the patriarchy. People who have been taught that they're not worth loving. Everyone for different reasons but it is such a debilitating thing to be taught from such a young age. It is hard to rewrite that tape in your head.
For a grown adult to overcome the damage from patriarchal teachings seems to be a HUGE undertaking.
I started this thread in order to try and gain perspective of how I can be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I am grateful that everyone who posts is willing to take the time and share their experiences and thoughts.
I do my best not to worry about it too much.
All of “me” is made up of meat, strangely and improbably sentient, doing my best to create an accurate and corresponding picture of the infinite universe and vast world I inhabit with VERY limited senses.
To the best of my knowledge, I know almost nothing.
And the greatest things I have learned are that being kind is better than being cruel, being accepting is better than being dismissive, and ice cream makes most days a little bit better.
(Also, that I have fat thumbs and typos are inevitable…)
@CharlesInWI
I love this perspective.
And the greatest things I have learned are that being kind is better than being cruel, being accepting is better than being dismissive
This seems to be true in almost EVEY situation!💜💗🌈🦋🥰❤️☺️ ice cream makes most days a little bit better.
@sillysassy You are such a lovely person. It truly hurts to think that anyone would want to make you feel that way about yourself.
Awwwww @Charlie_Bear you are so sweet and I am thankful there are people like you in this world and SPECIFICALLY in this community.
My experience is reverberated in a million stories I think.
So many people are hurt by thinking that is so singular.
I just wish someone would have been able to shout loud enough in my youth to have somehow gotten through the foggy haze of my belief system.
I suppose that’s one of the things that makes me so intent upon finding some new ways to look at things so I can pass good things on to my kids instead of perpetuating the ugliness.
Oh @Charlie_Bear now I have tears because you are so freaking amazing. 🥺
Hugs to you my furry co-cuddler!!
@sillysassy 🧸🫂
You’re amazing and anyone that dares say otherwise is simply wrong and should probably re-evaluate their life choices that could have possibly led them to such a misguided way of thinking.
@Charlie_Bear - I have to 2nd your comments about @sillysassy She is truly a beacon of kindness and encouragement in an often dark world. I hope her attitude and example inspires others as much as it does me. 🤗
I’ve always been annoyed by the debate on “toxic masculinity “. Or rather I just don’t like the term. Obviously there is behavior that is obnoxious like hitting a woman, getting into drunken fights, saying overtly sexist things. But why associate these things with masculinity?
Men have always thought of masculinity as a positive thing and have never defended these behaviors or considered men who did them to be overly masculine.
If you want to see positive images of masculinity watch a John Wayne movie. John Wayne (the character) would never had done any of these things. He was polite to women, he didn’t start trouble etc.
Masculinity is about standing up for what is right, being courageous, not backing down in the face of fear. Masculinity included traditional male activities like wilderness travel, hunting, fishing, wrestling, boxing, football etc.
Masculinity means keeping your body fit and able. It means coming off as sexy to women but not as some sexual predator. It implies confidence.
The trouble with the term toxic masculinity is that it comes off as if masculinity is to be considered toxic. There is feeling among men of resentment toward women for what they feel as masculinity being under attack.
This goes beyond accepting the the basic concepts of feminism. The feeling is like “Look, most of us accept the concept of feminism; that women have the right to choose their destiny and not be hemmed in by tradition norms. But why isn’t that enough? Why are women still attacking the concept of a masculine man. It feels like women are trying to extinguish the concept of manhood and make men into women”.
Not sure if my statement properly conveys the thought. And of course not all men feel this way. But I think many do.
Take example boys having fist fights. Boys have been doing this for all eternity. It’s how they worked things out and tested each other. It’s how they prepared to compete as an adult. It’s basically a kind of playing and for the most part it is harmless; like wolf cubs biting each other. And suddenly women have decided that this violence must stop. Now kids get in big trouble for the typical school yard fight and everyone makes a huge deal of it. They might even call it “toxic masculinity “.
Buts it’s not toxic at all. It’s normal boy behavior. It’s like trying to force dogs not to bark, ever. It goes against nature and what it has always meant to be a man. And it has nothing to do with women. It’s boys being boys.
Part of it is the misguided idea that violence is always wrong. Violence is not always wrong. Violence is sometimes necessary. Boys (and girls for that matter) need to learn when violence is necessary and they also need to be taught how to inflict it when it is. Men have always acted as defenders of the community and their families and people need to appreciate that. Men are violent so women don’t have to be.
Obviously men have been WAY too violent in the past and the gradual process of civilizing men has been underway for tens of thousands of years. But let’s not try to neuter men into weaklings who run away in fear from it. The proper way of dealing with a bully is still to punch them in the nose not to go tell a teacher. Boys who have fathers who teach them that will grow up into better men. Obviously they would never let me teach in schools!
This experiment done over the last 20 years of taking away natural boy behavior has created a generation of boys that are weak and scared. They are not able to compete as men. And it’s my observation that women their age find them less attractive as mates and tend to like older men who demonstrate more traditional masculine behavior. They have been having problems with sex drive and even have lower sperm count and less ability to make children.
I think we need to stop this stuff before we ruin another generation of young boys. It’s great to teach them to be feminist. But don’t teach that that all traditional male behavior is wrong. Let’s boys be boys. Just ensure they learn to respect girls and women which is required in modern day society. And enough with the patriarchy thing. Things tend to go too far and when they do, there is often a problematic backlash. Perhaps we are seeing signs of that in the obnoxious behavior from some men like Andrew Tate.
We should all be thanking our ancestors for being violent when necessary. Otherwise, none of us would be here. That’s not a normative statement but simply a factual one.
I’m perfectly happy to acknowledge that my ancestors lived in a far different world with far different necessities.
I also disdain the idea that our advances are somehow “less than”.
A lot of things from the past (and honestly still the present) SHOULD be disdained, and abandoned.
.
I'm fairly toxic. But I camouflage it with a little dry humor, sarcasm, and some nice incense or aromatic candles.
It's probably safe to say that none of my cuddle buddies had any idea....
Adjectives are modifiers. "Toxic" distinguishes certain expressions of masculinity from non-toxic ones. If any of my behavior is toxic, I'd hope to correct it rather than defend it.
Personally, I want to be a complete person and know all ways of being with love, kindness, affection, tenderness, and also with strength. Whatever is the good side of "masculinity" as well as "femininity" even, I want to know it all.
Recently, I have begun to identify as non-binary even though I adore traditional masculine clothing (as well as cigars and the occasional donning of a mustache)... the reason being that my priorities are not much like that of the traditional man, given their entirely platonic nature.
If there's one "toxic" behavior that drives me crazy, it's when folks objectify their partners, but that's the way of the world unfortunately...
One thing I will say also is that Professional Cuddling is amazing in that it provides monetary compensation for the emotional labor sometimes expected of folks due to gender roles!
Nobody is saying masculinity is bad . Toxicity is bad . There are certain traits of masculinity that can be considered toxic if not kept in check . To be offended at the term is akin to denying this reality. You can have both masculinity, as well as toxic masculinity, both can exist and not be the same as the other. Masculinity is a good thing. Toxic traits are not.
@MissAdventurous Things are changing rapidly. All throughout my life, the power of positive thinking was widely promoted. Your post seems to indicate positive thinking is considered to be detrimental now. Am I interpreting that correctly?
@MissAdventurous so true on the things you should say with school age kids especially the past three years. Everything in red is very dismissive and avoids engaging the problem and when you use the wording on the right versus the left column the results are night and day. You actually get a real conversation going.
My school age kid was raised understanding and appreciating the power of positive thinking. She now seeks out excellence, and success, and she's doing great. I'm so proud of her.
You're interrupting whatever you want from the meme, that is what perception brings. I honor that. 🙂
As to what I mean, just read the meme again and reassess outside that perception for better results. 👌🏻
This is not a black and white subject matter, nor do I suggest to participate myself in such conversations that result in talking in circles, this is not my intention.
In these simple, worded messages, I try to bring affirmation and solutions as my end goal 💭
That, is what this means to me when how we view our observations of what can seem positive in ones mind, can or cannot, be said in ways that encourage a verbal solution, vs. a platitude.
In fact, it may not encourage the individual in the long run, regardless of intention. Hence the subject of what I posted prior. 💓
This is a joke, right? John Wayne hit women in several of his movies, like his wife in "McLintock!"
@AllAboutSoul but hey, boys will be boys right 🙄
McClintock or The Quiet Man or etc he was really rough
@AllAboutSoul Those were movies, right?