Good to hear fro. those in the medical field. Your opinions are valued.
@pmvines Do you think if hospice care is done well that one might not suffer and could pass easily without having to do anything to ned life before the natural process is complete?
@TNNative I do . We provide comfort meds to keep them comfortable, which certainly helps towards the end when someone is actively dying or transitioning. The thing about assisted suicide is that one has to be alert and oriented and able to self administer, for the most part. At least that's my understanding of the process. So I wouid assume that these wouid primarily be people who have already made the decision to go that route before giving comfort palliative measures a chance to be effective, or have tried palliative measures and aren't satisfied with it .
Please report any comments that are part of a religious debate that have been posted beyond this point. Thanks.
A very tuff subject, I have a DNR. The main reason is I don’t want to be put on a machine and bed ridden just to keep my heart going. I have dealt with a loved one with dementia and Alzheimer’s and it’s a very bad way to die. I remember as a child going to a nursing home for over a year to visit a family member that was in a coma, I thought then what a terrible way to die. I have told my family how I feel and they are OK with it. Living in Florida with a large number of the elderly I see on the news where people decide to end their own life and no one can judge them because they have not walked in their shoes. If it was put on a ballot I would vote yes !!
As a nurse of a quarter of a decade who has worked in all the critical areas as well as Hospice, I would caution against simplifying this subject. It doesn't only affect the individual but the healthcare professionals and physicians who are may be required to take part in the process if it becomes law. Our Hospice happend to be only 10 miles from the Oregon border and refused to take patients from Oregon who wanted to have assisted suicide. Part of this was based on the philosophy of Hospice and part because, in a rural medically underserved area, it was often difficult to find or arrange the prerequisite 2 physicians to sign off on the procedure.
Don't get me wrong, I understand bodily autonomy and personal choice and always try to prioritize that, but there are a myriad of considerations that often come into play in these situations. Simply the amount of life changing interactions that can take place in the process of death between the family and the patient, if the patient can be made comfortable and have their basic needs taken care of, are INVALUABLE and can change multiple lives across generations.
It is an extremely complexed topic an, if not treated with the reverence it deserves, can have outcomes like in Canada where it is being utilized as a answer to non-life ending conditions. Concerning to say the least.
@waynewv Question. So, you have a DNR because you don't want to be hooked to machine to live the rest of your life... If you could be resuscitated and return almost immediately to your normal life or shortly after, would you want to be resuscitated?
@LadyVel , I have thought about that very thing. I guess that would be a yes. I know it may be possible but not likely. I had an aunt they had a DNR, she had a heart attack, after getting to the hospital she died, her only daughter was there and asked the doctor to ignore the DNR, they brought her back and she lived another year and she told her daughter to not do it again. A very tuff thing to face. I guess I’m committed to that chance. I was very near death once, 5 weeks in the hospital and 4 weeks in intensive care with 2 out of body experiences. Yes. They do happen. I never once thought to revoke my DNR, even after they called in the family thinking I wasn’t going to make it. After that I got out I had a different view of things. Also when going thru that mess, I never thought once about the material things I had at home, cars, trucks, campers etc. I reached out to family and a few close friends to let them how I felt. They all knew I had a DNR, not one asked about it.
@waynewv I see. Thanks for answering.
It just worries me when some of my own family mention DNR, especially those who aren't older or are still very healthy.
Studies have shown that a DNR on file can lead to elevated death rates, poorer medical care, and negative health outcomes. In some hospitals, DNR may as well stand for DNT (do not treat) as physicians as less likely to order a variety of procedures on patients with DNR orders. ~
In regards to the original post, I think medically aided death (death with dignity) is a humane decision for those critically or terminally ill as long as it's their choice. I do worry about life insurance but most policies have an exclusionary period that once past, they will still pay out. I'm sure if this becomes more widely accessible/passed by law in more states, there may be changes in life insurance policy that reflects that.
In theory assisted suicide can be very humane for those suffing from Incurable and terminal illness. However in practice it can have a more sinister application. In Canada there have been a number of stories were people who were disabled and depended on government assistance sought out MAID because they could not get the living accommodations or assistance they needed to live a comfortable life. There was on story of a disabled man who’s landlord was selling the property and there was nowhere else he could afford with his disability benefits so he was facing homelessness and he knew he couldn’t survive on the streets with his condition so he sought out MAID to avoid homelessnesses even though he wanted to continue living. For him he got media attention and there was a go fund me and the landlord ended up not selling so he was able to keep living . However there are many others that were not so lucky. Humans manage to corrupt everything and I worry that human euthanasia will become more akin to putting down healthy animals who can’t get adopted fast enough, rather than putting down animals who are suffering.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/13/medical-assistance-death-maid-canada/amp/
@xandriarain Thank you for your contribution. Point well taken. Under those conditions do you think his MAID application would have been approved?
What isn’t being addressed is DNR is only one of a myriad of options. For example, you can have both a DNR and an Advance Directive. The Advanced Directive drills down more than a DNR and eliminates a lot of grey areas that a DNR has and you are choosing who will advocate for you when you are unable to. Many of the options are addressed here:
https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/advance-care-planning-advance-directives-health-care#:~:text=order for free-,What are advance directives?,of attorney for health care.
I have both and did so on the eve of a 16 hour surgery a few years ago that I knew would include an extended stay in ICU. I felt relieved that my som and daughter would not have to make any heavy decisions about my future.
@Mman it was approved he had his appointment scheduled and everything and his doctor who approved it was aware that it was due to poverty rater than physical pain and suffering
@xandriarain there was a Canadian furniture company which produced an ad praising MAID and featuring a disabled woman. Turns out she wanted to live, she needed to have a lift installed to move her from the first to second floor of her home on the stairs. Canadian health care company said they would not provide the money for it but instead offered her MAID. She had no alternatives so took the offer. Imagine that? The government saying yeah we won’t pay for an electric lift but will pay to end your life.
It is still a form of playing God. A person will pass away when they are meant to. That moment is already in their future to take place when it is time. So anything that is done to make it be faster is technically murder no matter how you look at it. Unless it was an actual accident then it is a different story.
Do you feel the same way about animals? This is a real & honest question. We "put down" animals who are suffering. I know there will be complications and situations and other things that arise, but I do not understand how we (as humans) can think that it is humane to put down animals so they do not suffer, but refuse to offer the same for our own species. Yes. There is more that goes into it, and being in the medical field I understand the responsibility issues... but why should any human suffer into death rather than go out in dignity in their own terms?
@Amortentia - I disagree. If they are bed ridden with a terminal illness, they are dying anyway. There is no reason to prolong their death while they are suffering.
@Ironman294 Exactly; the government already shows how little they value the lives of people who are poor and, or disabled, and if assisted suicide is legal more broadly in the US, I can see the same thing happening here potentially much worse than it is in Canada. The furniture company could have given her a chair lift and used that as a pr stunt instead.
As a hypochondriac who is more afraid of disease and decay than death and as an anxious control freak, being able to end my life on my terms if an illness got too scary for me is appealing, at least to know it's an option, because I don't know if I would actually have the courage to take it.
If an individual is able to make an informed decision regarding their end of life it is clearly not murder and certainly not playing God.
If we're gonna talk about playing God, hooking somebody up to life support equipment is also playing God since they would pass naturally if it wasn't for those machines.
@Mike403 Great point
@Mman Great topic and thread
@Charlie_Bear Thank you for keeping religion at bay in a secular discussion.
@BoomerSpooner I was hoping for a meaningful discussion. Your contributions gave been helpful.
Poverty IS physical pain and suffering.
Homelessness even more so.
Choosing to end one’s life is an intensely personal decision, and no one can (or should) judge the level of suffering, hopelessness, or weariness that might lead an individual to that choice.
If we are not free to choose then we are not free.
Life is hard, and it makes no exceptions.
I support all individuals in their choices, providing it harms no one else.
I also firmly believe that crisis help, mental health and therapy, as well as pain management should be fully explored.
But I cannot judge another’s pain.
What I will do is support their right to choose, to die with dignity, and with as little violence, suffering, and mess as possible.
@CharlesInWI yes but poverty is not incurable. That is the equivalent of letting someone with a treatable illness be euthanized. Those who are in poverty but want to continue living should be given support and resources not euthanasia. Those with severe mental illness should be given treatment because a lot of times they are too chemically imbalanced or out of touch with reality to make a life or death decision. There are many people who survived suicide attempts and regained there will to live.
@Lisa123 Being a physician myself, I find it very difficult to put my patient to death. I believe palliative care exists for the same reason to make their remaining life as easy as possible. If we open the door of assisted suicide, where will the red line be? and who will determine the red line? As the concept of suffering is subjective and based on individual thresholds and circumstances, the same objective condition could be perceived on totally different levels by the person suffering. I believe many would agree with me that psychological pain is sometimes way worse than physical pain. Also, I believe we cannot compare humans with other animals, and as humans, we don't want to live like animals. It is not considered wrong for animals to kill each other, eat each other's flesh, rape, steal, or any similar action that we abhor in human society, and we do not condemn them when they do that, as that is expected behavior from them, living by the rule of the survival of the fittest. That's why people refer to inhumane people as animals to show their anger. Similarly, humans have been hunting other animals for food and using their products for survival since the beginning of humans till now, so much so that without it we wouldn't even have our modern medicine, but we cannot use other humans in those capacities, as it will be considered severely disgusting universally. Therefore, I believe we cannot compare humans and animals when discussing the topic of assisted dying.
I understand what you are saying & I understand it it a slippery slope. I have also witnessed a prolonged death process and found it to be inhumane. It's not a black & white issue. There are very obviously many things to consider with positive & negative on both sides of the debate.
I would never want to watch it happen again and hope no one will ever have to watch me go through it.
@LetsCuddle505 Do you work for the UM med system?
@Lisa123 I guess I do. I have only had one pet in my life and was never able to replace it with another. And when my cat was sick and dying at its last days I made sure to spend my time with it and I don't regret it. I was 7 when I lost my cat. Still want my cat back just that one only. Some bonds just can't be replaced.
@Mike403 very true. Humans are way too depended on technology these days. It isn't always a good thing.
@Mman indeed you are right. I mean if someone was home alone and had a gun to aim for their head. No one will be there to stop them. So they certainly can end their life in any way. My point is not all ways are recommended.