Censoring

TxTomTxTom
in General

Unless a flagged forum post is actively advocating physical violence against another party, it should not be edited or removed.

Censoring opposing points of view, no matter how disagreeable or offensive some mind find them, is not conducive to promoting respect and mutual understanding. Censoring does not lead to enlightenment, it only breeds contempt and resentment.

That said, too many forum threads devolve into name calling, innuendo, and personal insults. Agree or disagree, we should maintain a respectful decorum, and address other forum users no differently than the way we would address them in person.

For viewing content that is inappropriate for users under 18 years old, some websites require signing in to confirm age before controversial content can be viewed. I think a similar feature should be implemented on these forums. Controversial posts should be allowed to remain intact for those who wish to view them, while simultaneously allowing others to bypass them who do not wish to view them.

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Comments

  • [Deleted User]CharlesInWI (deleted user)
    edited June 2023

    Respectfully, I disagree.

    The Intolerance Paradox essentially explains that the thing that a tolerant and just society cannot tolerate is intolerance.

    Bigotry is not an opinion, bigotry is a tool of oppression and of violence.

    In a safe space, such as these forums (and with a lot more hard work our culture) bigotry, intolerance, and disdain for the Other SHOULD be removed, and those who suffer from from their own fears and prejudices SHOULD be censored and given “time outs” to reflect upon their actions.

    And, if needed, banned to protect those who do use these forums as a place of acceptance and connection.

  • [Deleted User]WriterGF (deleted user)

    I have to agree with @CharlesInWI -- this is a private site, and the site owner via TOS and the mods have the right to determine what is acceptable behavior here. Leaving every topic up will simply encourage trolls to keep cluttering up the boards with their abusive nonsense.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    Emotional violence (eg, telling people they have no right to exist) kills people at least as much as physical violence. It's a lot easier to kill someone with emotional violence. You can do it over the internet with words, and you don't have to see the consequences of your actions.

    I'm not being hyperbolic saying that emotional violence kills people. It drives them to suicide.

  • TxTomTxTom

    I appreciate that, @CharlesInWI but censoring doesn't stop the process. The act of censoring will lead to an opposite reaction. Mainstreaming ideas is not static, but often a gradual process.

    As far as bigotry (an "obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group"), it is an interesting concept.

    Setting your own beliefs aside, which side would you consider bigoted in the conflict between Messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews? Neither side get along well. Should one or the other be censored, or should they try to reach mutual understanding, notwithstanding both sides will make arguments the other side will find intolerably offensive?

  • [Deleted User]WriterGF (deleted user)

    Do you really think you were going to be able to reach mutual understanding with GhettoCockroach today? On what basis? I don't see legit debates being shut down here, I see trolling being shut down. And trolls don't come on here in hopes of singing Kumbaya with the membership.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @TxTom That's a bad analogy. Orthodox Jews may not consider messianic Jews to be Jewish, but that doesn't mean they want to kill the messianic Jews. They're not trying to outlaw the existence of messianic Jews.

    If you want a good example, try one where one side wants to live in peace and the other side wants to kill them. Tell me what kind of mutual understanding can be had with that.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    I'd like the censorship to look more like this...

    Vulgar, belittling, etc isn't tolerated here

    "bad words" and "blah, blah, [redacted], blah" (where "[redacted]" takes the place of the garbage portion(s) of the post)

    But I totally understand the rediculous amount of work that would take, especially with how fast flags fly around here. The censorship we see is a direct result of what happens when you have volunteers (with lives outside of here) trying to do their best to keep the BS from ruining a good thing.

    So yeah, I wish it were different, but I don't think any proposed differences are going to be realized without the collective having to give up something precious in return.

  • AllAboutSoulAllAboutSoul

    Of course, people can have their opinions, but it doesn't absolve them from the consequences of expressing it.

  • CuddleWhoCuddleWho

    Sorry, that's not how this works. While I'm not always thrilled with every moderating decision on this forum, any Internet forum without fairly active moderation is likely to devolve into a cesspool of ignorance and off-topic inanity. Over on Reddit, there are dozens or hundreds of subreddits that basically died because idiotic off-topic posts were allowed to remain and eventually drowned out the real content.

  • CharlieBearCharlieBear Mod

    If this is about the discussion questioning the site being platonic I hid that thread because of the sheer amount of reports it was receiving. If someone else that is not a forum troll wants to make a thread and try to keep it more civil, go for it.

  • TxTomTxTom

    @Unscented_Lemon I think my analogy works. Specifically, the censored users on other threads were not advocating killing anyone.

    And classifying opposing views as being equivalent to physical violence is not a legitimate argument.

  • TxTomTxTom

    @Charlie_Bear While this thread was inspired by the actions taken in another thread, it is really about a larger, societal issue.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @TxTom Which threads were those?

    Having an "opposing view" to someone's existence is equivalent to physical violence. Try being the target of it sometime and see what you think.

  • TxTomTxTom

    @Unscented_Lemon Before they were removed, I had read the other posts thoroughly and carefully. I don't remember a single sentence by any User stating that you, Unscented_Lemon, don't have the right to exist.

  • teddybear888teddybear888

    @ Everyone.

    For so many many reasons I wish we could have Great Debates. Full of civility, deference, high mindedness borne of respect & dignity.

    It’s not gonna happen, though, and in a way that’s okay. Because, that’s not life, and that is not true strength. I don’t want a world where I can’t read Tale of Two Cities. I don’t want a world without Tolkien, Jordan, Doyle, Lewis & so many others.

    Silencing all versus silencing the few… it’s the varying degrees of East Bloc & Far East. Both are wrong. I get it. I do. It’s the easiest solution to just hammer down, make it go away and keep the cool kids going while the problem children get booted.

    Is that the right solution though? There’s a gnawing concern here that just won’t stop. The best I can characterize it is like this….

    1. A gym that turns away the 400 lb “slob” to protect their hot body community thing they got going.

    2. The clinic that turns away the gravely ill because they’d rather keep it light, airy & only deal with the easy peasy stuff.

    3. Those who genuinely are with good intentions trying to keep a lid on things but sometimes may go a lil overboard because it wears ya down and Frankly it’s easier to just scrub it than to actively manage it. How’s that for a run on sentence?

    Here’s what I’m getting to….. the “comfort” part. Is it somehow lost on all of us here that there are those genuinely in actual need? Do we recognize what that actually looks like?

    You can’t call yourself a clinic if you turn away the sick. You can’t call yourself qualified and prepared to offer therapeutic services & respite if you’re just in it for cash & community.

    Don’t trumpet the benefits and wonders if you refuse that comfort in your words.

    Keeps rearing up, this thing of being caustic to one another on one side but then profusely professing the let’s all cuddle. Can’t be done.

    Gotta be kind even more so to those who make it tough to do so. They need it the most. Otherwise, who’re you really fooling here?

    If it helps, think of the animal who was neglected, and abused. Think of the actual efforts it takes for the next person to really get through to them. No shortcuts. No tricks. Just real effort with real heart. It’s the same thing here. You think it’s the well adjusted, well heeled, who are here?

    Be kind.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    Just because one may not have been the direct target, doesn't mean they aren't impacted. There are plenty of reports around the psychological impacts trolls and bullies have on the target as well as witnesses, bystanders and those who find themselves swept up in mob mentality.

    That said, I didn't see the thread in question so my prior comment still stands as my opion towards CC censorship in general.

  • teddybear888teddybear888
    edited June 2023

    @quixotic_life

  • teddybear888teddybear888

    @TxTom Thank you for having the hutzpah to say so.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @TxTom So it only counts if I was specifically addressed, and someone specifically said "You don't have the right to exist"? That's a very disingenuous way of burying your head in the sand.

    Since you won't say which threads it was, I have to assume it was the pride month thread. Here's an article about the results of "but I never actually said you don't have a right to exist". https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/16/us-trans-non-binary-youth-suicide-mental-health

  • teddybear888teddybear888

    @Unscented_Lemon it’s about a thread from earlier today that has since been made inaccessible.

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    @teddybear888 Are you sure? Talking about threats of physical violence and "opposing points of view" doesn't seem like something that would apply to a thread about the site being platonic. If that thread did bring out bigotry in people, they've got some pretty big problems.

  • teddybear888teddybear888

    @Unscented_Lemon A lot was said. A lot could have been said better. A lot wasn’t said.

  • Carrie_AnneCarrie_Anne

    I’m curious, if a thread is “hidden” does that mean no other members of the site are allowed to read it after the time it was “hidden”?
    Am I, as an adult, being protected/prevented from reading something that could be upsetting or controversial?
    Or have I misunderstood what is being discussed here? Can someone please clarify!

  • Mike403Mike403

    @carrieanne - It was a troll thread created by somebody just to stir the pot.

  • Carrie_AnneCarrie_Anne

    Thanks @Mike403
    I assumed that but I wondered why it was hidden and not allowed to be read.
    I happen to appreciate different points of view, and would like to read the thread. I’ve been around too long, seen too much, to be offended by much said by anyone. I’m pretty much the oldest person active in the forum. I think i can handle it.
    Locking makes sense. I don’t understand “Hidden “.
    Does that mean the thread is deleted and no longer available anywhere?

  • CharlieBearCharlieBear Mod

    @carrieanne
    In the case of a post being “hidden”, that means it was moved to a board that nobody but mods can see. We don’t actually delete any threads, we just move em. I am not sure what is being referenced specifically here, but earlier today there was a post by a troll that got so many reports that I couldn’t even use the forums on my device because the flags were literally obstructing my entire view 😅 so I just moved it so I could actually read here. I have been driving to Colorado for the meetup so it probably could have been handled better.

  • Carrie_AnneCarrie_Anne

    Ahh thanks for the explanation @Charlie_Bear
    I think I learn the most by reading about people’s POVs that are different from mine, so I appreciate them all.
    I wish I was going to be in CO tomorrow.
    Drive safe, have fun and relax!! 🤗😊

  • UREverythingUREverything

    Threads are regurgitated monthly.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited June 2023

    Another thread that ignores what the TOS are that one agrees to when they join the website and then call it censoring. But censoring in and of itself depends on the beholder and the context if it is bad or good.

    If you don’t like what you agreed to then don’t play. The thread was created by a troll who has created one phony account after another and intentionally starts inflammatory threads. If they let trolls “debate” with impunity the forum would be a wasteland inhabited only by the hateful and kids.

    There are basic rules—no religion, no politics, and intolerance to sex, creeds, race, etc. There are more subjective rules such as attacks, verbal harassment, no repeated pointless threads or posts etc. that are judged by the site mods and owners. And it is their right to do so because the site is a private entity and not subject to censorship laws.

    Again, if you don’t like it, delete and start your own site or live within the constraints of this site. It is a pretty simple decision. Do I agree with everything the site does? Certainly not and I have bumped heads with the owner before, but it doesn’t mean I don’t respect his right to run the site the way he wants. But this is not censoring in the bad sense—the TOS are guidelines in how conduct will transpire on the site. Everyone censors themselves at work to an extent, so why should things be different here?

    There have been others in the past on the forum bringing up this same topic and it has always felt like there was an agenda behind it—they wished to talk politics, express their religious views, or just watch things burn because they derived pleasure from it. This isn’t the place. There are political sites, religious sites, and incel sites if you desire those things. I appreciate the site for trying to provide a safe space for all even if the occasional bigot surfaces and shows their stripes. When that occurs I celebrate the mods for exercising their right to ban or issue a time out passport.

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    @TxTom - I completely get where you are coming from but respectfully disagree with where you are going. I am not a fan of censorship at all BUT, that doesn’t mean it is appropriate to say everything everywhere.

    This is a very rough analogy but when I travel Internationally, I do not expect every country to have every sign and every menu in English. I am the visitor and they may have some signs and menus in English (especially in tourist areas) but I am expected to navigate the local language and customs. If there are local customs I don’t like (i.e. my hotel in Spain was across the street from a bull fighting arena which I find cruel and inhumane) I don’t have to participate in them but I have to respect that is the local custom.

    CC has “local customs” about what is and isn't allowed in the forums. If I want to debate the wisdom / constitutionality of COVID lockdowns and vaccine mandates, I am free to do so… but not here. That is what Reddit, Twitter, Locals, and other platforms are for. As a community, CC has decided certain topics, such as politics and religion, are off limits in the forums and I respect that.

    While I do not agree with every content moderation decision here I don’t complain because 1) nobody is going to agree 100% of the time on the countless decisions the mods have to make every week and 2) I have to give a lot of credit to the great work the mods do here to keep out community from devolving into the bitter chaos present on many other platforms.

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