@Bear Make sure you save these soon-to-be historic photographs! And to think you were there!
The Chicago Coconut Party.
Did you grab a little piece of coconut off the sidewalk? Might worth some $$$ in the future.
@txtom are you saying or saying I would call them racist no matter what?
@TxTom if it was sports related I would save it. I can remember seeing tons of confetti for the Sox victory event. That same night they were selling Ziploc baggies of it for like $100-$200 a pop on eBay, lol
I stopped looking for souvenirs. A long time ago, lol. Pictures are good enough.
@Ironman294 I'm not saying, suggesting, or accusing you or anyone else of anything. I was just seeking clarification on your earlier post.
Back to the topic at hand.
A few years from now, when we're all sipping on some guilt-free, certified non-monkey labor coconut juice, will PeTA focus it's attention on the unethical behavior of monkeys eating other monkeys? Of which some of those eaten may be the very monkeys we liberated from the coconut labor camps.
It would make sense for the racists to go to the embassy since the Chinese communist government could stop it if they want it to. If they just went to the embassy I wouldn’t call them racist, but by going to some random Chinese restaurant tells me all I need to know about these people.
If the monkey owners in Thailand are breaking the law in Thailand, that's a matter that should be brought to the attention of the Thai authorities.
If they are not .... well, animal welfare laws in Thailand are a matter for the people of Thailand. If you're an American in America and you want Thailand to change its laws, and attempt to do so by bullying and intimidation, or refusing to buy certain products, that's called 'cultural imperialism'. It's very common amongst the middle classes of the West: 'I won't buy your coffee/cocoa/coconuts unless you flush your culture and history down the toilet and live according to the rules I set you. No, I won't be consulting you on what those rules are.'
If you really care about animal welfare in Thailand - and these people manifestly don't - then move to Thailand, obtain Thai citizenship, and work peacefully towards your end.
Protests can work but it's pretty rare, and usually only when a large number of people are genuinely upset about something. Peaceful protest is an essential element of a functioning democracy but violent protest is not. Violent protest - also normally ineffective - is only required in non-democratic circumstances.
In countries like the US - and Thailand for that matter - large numbers of changes are effected every day through the normal channels of governance. People who actually care about an issue operate in that sphere.
Protests are almost always about making the protesters feel better. Protesters whose main aim is to make the public angry with them (by blocking roads, attacking innocent businesses or disrupting sporting events) may be either unconsciously seeking to repeat childhood patterns and/or projecting anger they have suppressed onto others.
I once saw a film of monkeys harveseting coconuts for farmers. No idea whether it was Thailand or not and it was some years ago.
It was extremely efficient - the monkeys zoomed up the tree, selected the ripe coconuts and dropped them. They loved it - it's just climbing trees, and every now and again they got a pat on the head or a treat. If the farmers made them angry, they would go up the tree and either stay there in a huff or throw all the coconuts - ripe and unripe - at the farmer. And of course they could run off at any time. It was all somewhat reminiscent of falconry.
I don’t really care one way or the other on the 2023 Thai Coconut Crisis, but the dismissiveness about protests being about the protesters is plain ignorance. Names and places like Gandhi, King, and Kent State come to mind. Or the ongoing struggle of half our population:
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/21/womens-march-protests-history-suffragettes-iceland-poland
People who actually care about an issue operate in that sphere.
This is a statement of privilege. Not everyone is listened to on equal terms.
Protests do provoke change for the better.
@BoomerSpooner - Yes, but we're discussing PETA here. They don't protest. They put on a circus act in random locations.
Yes, but we're discussing PETA here.
@Mike403 you glossed over @CuddleDuncan ’s post which I was responding to. And many people were commenting on the protest and not PETA. There are two things going on in this thread.
@CuddleDuncan outside boycotts in my mind aren’t a form of remote imperialism. Think of buying only fair trade of things that demean human life otherwise. Coffee, chocolate, diamonds… you can show your disappointment through boycotting and organized boycotting helps. I’m not a huge fan of PETA the woman running it is a hypocrite. And this is a little weird but in general it’s not controlling their government. It’s saying you (and others) won’t buy things from evil people. If people don’t want something they see as atrocities going on expressing it isn’t wrong.
Protests are about expressing your displeasure at an underlying issue that undermines your values. I’m not saying things are perfect but the right to protest is a human right in my mind.
First, agree with PETA or not, every comment on this thread is a victory for them.
Second, @CuddleDuncan wrote: If you really care about animal welfare in Thailand … then move to Thailand, obtain Thai citizenship, and work peacefully towards your end.
Umm… There’s no middle ground here? If every attempt to raise awareness about an industry’s bad actors were held to your false dichotomy, apartheid would still be the law of the land in South Africa and PNC bank would still be financing mountaintop removal as a means of accessing coal.
That’s just a couple of heinous practices that ended because people brought attention to the issue and put market pressure on the bad actors to change.
People on here dismissing “all the protesters” (for having been unsuccessful at persuading you to open you your eyes on any topic) you are telling on yourselves.
@stormydaycuddle Fair Trade is a very nasty, very racist organisation. Yes I did take the trouble to read their rules in detail: I went right down into the rabbit hole of the small print because I was so horrified at what I found. That was some years ago and things may have changed, but I doubt it.
Consumers have a choice about what they buy, and if somebody doesn't want to buy X because of something to do with the production process that's obviously fine. But if the society that supervises that production process thinks it's fine, then outsiders who organise other outsiders to try and change the process should, in my view, be mindful of any historical context and potential power inbalances before proceeding.
Note that in my previous post I said "functioning democracy". (Perhaps I should have said "high-functioning democracy" but I'm not going to edit the post now.) Nobody, absolutely nobody, outside the USA thinks the USA is a functioning democracy. Even in a functioning democracy, the system breaks from time to time.
The vast majority of protests are small, peaceful, pass entirely unnoticed by everybody except those interested or impacted, and achieve nothing. The big ones, that we remember, are the exceptions.
🥥 🥥
First to post…
@MonkeyNeedsAHug of course there can be middle ground. But your apartheid point makes my case perfectly: most of the people in South Africa thought apartheid was not ok.
Edit: just enjoyed your second post. Mighty pretty indeed!
@CuddleDuncan Interesting position, but I must disagree. It's entirely within our right to advocate for change in other countries which are part of the global supply chain - in fact, it's our responsibility as purchasers.
There are so many workers in terrible situations in this world. In Saudi Arabia, workers arrive and bosses take away their passports so they can't leave, demanding they repay some artificial debt. In Singapore, foreign maids work 6 day weeks, never leaving the employer's apartment. In Thailand, slave laborers from Myanmar process shrimp 16 hours a day under threat of beatings. Elsewhere in Asia, children break apart electronics just to extract copper and metal bits, inhaling toxic chemicals every day.
It's not "cultural imperialism" to look at those labor practices and conclude that something must be done.
@cde123 yep yep! It’s taking blind acceptance role that does the most harm.
@cde123 Spot on.
Also, did things get violent at the PETA protest? This seems a little like a tirade about the US. We get to protest. Sorry that’s not the case elsewhere. Violent protest happen but for every 1 of those we have dozens that went well/peaceful. Freedom of speech is important to us. What you may call imperialism is cause and effect. Or we can sit passively by and let others dictate our world without question. Protests do work… blindly following…eh. I feel sad for people who don’t have the right to question. And speak their mind to their government.
The US is not perfect, not by a long shot. But I prefer it to the suppression of the UK’s Policing Bill they passed in 2022 which sparked protests around England and condemnation from many around the world. It effectively suppresses protest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police,_Crime,_Sentencing_and_Courts_Act_2022
We can't even stop using human slaves so those monkeys are just meat to be used by a system that thinks even human children are nothing but an expendable source of lithium. Even chocolate manufacturers like hershies and cadburries use slave children. Apparently it's not worth the few extra cents to not do this and we as a society support it and even cover up the truth of our choices.
Hiding the truth and burying our ugly daily actions seems to be a very human thing to do. I guess it helps us to think of ourselves as good people.
@Bear maybe the protestors were unhappy because they needed a cuddle? Or....perhaps these protestors were secretly working for a competitor in the coconut milk industry and they lost their jobs because the monkeys did it better and cheaper? So many questions.....
Monkey see, monkey do…it or else.
@silverdaktx I was at work. So unfortunately we won’t know. It was enlightening. They were going to throw out the coconuts, so people were taking the ones that were not damaged. Otherwise, the protesters picked up all the coconuts and the smashed coconuts.
https://i.gifer.com/GvnM.gif
@CallMeMikey Love that.
What are the three animals that can open locked doors?
Monkey,dog,and raccoons.
@CuddleDuncan "If the monkey owners in Thailand are breaking the laws in Thailand..."
Your argument appears to overlook the potential positive impact of raising global awareness on issues such as animal welfare. While respecting cultural differences is crucial, it's essential to recognize that interconnectedness allows us to address shared concerns. Advocates often resort to boycotts not to dictate rules, but to encourage dialogue and collaboration. While protests' effectiveness varies, they can serve as powerful tools to shed light on overlooked issues, even within democratic contexts. Balancing cultural sensitivity with the pursuit of ethical standards is a complex challenge that requires critical examination rather than dismissal.
@CuddleDuncan "Fair trade is a very nasty..."
While your perspective highlights concerns about Fair Trade, it's important to critically evaluate the basis of your claims. Reading their rules in detail is commendable, but drawing conclusions solely from a past experience might not accurately represent the organization's current practices. The notion of racism should be substantiated with concrete evidence, as such allegations hold serious implications.
Your assertion that outsiders organizing change should be cautious about historical context and power imbalances is valid, but it's equally important to consider that external pressure can sometimes prompt necessary improvements. Cultural sensitivity is essential, but it shouldn't deter efforts to advocate for ethical standards, especially when local opinions might be divided.
Regarding the assertion about the USA not being perceived as a functioning democracy outside its borders, it's important to note that opinions vary widely. The effectiveness of protests is indeed varied, but it's an oversimplification to dismiss them as mostly inconsequential. Small peaceful protests, while not headline-worthy, can contribute to raising awareness and fostering change in their own right.
Seems laissez-faire to say as long as it's not in my backyard it's not a problem. Don't need an essay to make that conclusion. Even though I don't necessarily approve of PETA and their tactics, I emphatically believe that the issue at hand of animal cruelty is something that should be protested. People are too afraid of being called insensitive to a culture so they turn an eye to things that they know are wrong. You have people murdered freely and publicly in the town center in countries that claim religious ideology as a reason to kill gay people, women, and people of other religions. Speak up and protest when you see something is wrong with the world. Stop affording cultural exception for things that the rest of the world knows is wrong.