I just got home from my trip and am super tired but I want to post something there really quick.
I absolutely cuddle married men. It does not bother me in the least. I'll tell you why. The married men I have cuddled are usually the best about maintaining boundaries. They love and respect their wives and wouldn't want it to go beyond plantonic. There is also a huge benefit to the wife. These men often report an improvement in their marriage because they are removing stress and getting in a much better mood before going home so they can in turn be attentive to their wives. If it benefited my relationship that much to make my life happier and easier in multiple areas I don't see a problem.
Poorly worded I know but I'm too sleepy to articulate properly.
To the one that said "don't be a part of the problem" I'm not, this is a solution. It can actually save a relationship. If my guy felt he needed intimacy that I wasn't providing for whatever reason. I would much rather them get it from a cuddler than a prostitute or mistress. Because believe me that once someone realizes what they are missing they are eventually going to seek it out. This is just a healthy version of that.
Guys there is nothing wrong with acknowledgement and request of what you need as long as you maintain your boundaries.
Then don't cuddle people who are doing it in secret. You are not a pro, so you can do as you please. I am a pro, so it is my desire and goal to not judge and allow others to process their feelings in a comfortable, safe, and accepting space. What people do might not be ideal, but they have their reasons and a story to tell. Part of my cuddling sessions might be helping them understand their motivations and, if they desire, come up with a plan for being honest, but I won't consider them a bad person for trying to make the best of a not ideal situation :-/ I just don't think the forums are a place we should be breeding judgment. Just makes me sad. Platonic cuddling is supposed to harbor a safe space for people. :-)
@AshleyCuddles beautifully worded...
@AshleyCuddles You articulated perfectly.
Well that's a relief. Lol. I just drove 19 hours straight. It's all a bit blurry. Lol
Pro or not how other people choose to have their relationship is on them not on me . Those saying they aren’t judgmental are saying very judgmental things . Do as you like but don’t need to tell others what they should do . Good and bad is depending on your perception and moral beliefs . Not everyone subscribed to the same morality .
By being honest about my situation I am giving a potential cuddle partner the choice. I repeat that I’m positive there will be men using this site that are not being honest about their status to deliberately mislead and thereby not giving that choice. I think my approach is better even if it reduces the options.
I only brought up the pro or not, because it especially bothers me when a pro is on here being judgmental and unkind O:-)
I agree I wasn’t talking to you specifically .
@cuddlebugTM , @Lorelei @AshleyCuddles , @Morpheus , @ubergigglefritz @JRose Thank you for your comments. I know that my comments were likely a little harsh and maybe TMI, but I was basically trying to get across the same message, but was a little more forceful as it appeared to me that the opening questions and subsequent explanations by the OP were a personal attack. Thank you again.
I googled forum etiquette and every list I found says something very similar to the screen cap above.
That's why I didn't do anything in caps. I find it easier to read long posts where important paragraphs stand out in bold, which I explained earlier, but you're picking on my "forum etiquette"? Jeez. Heck, that screenshot has done the same thing because the most important part is "do turn that caps lock key off".
Here is my completely unsolicited opinion on why this thread is a point of contention, and where I would like to speak up for the OP. The OP appears to be fairly new to this community and concept of platonic cuddling. Many people who are new to this, and even who aren't new to this, have a difficult time reconciling platonic cuddling while in a relationship, particularly when it is kept from the partner. I have said this before, and I stand by the fact that cuddling, even in the most platonic of context, can be very intimate, creates arousal, and there can be quite a bit of touching and petting in sleep wear or minimal clothing, and typically is in a bed or sofa in a laying down position. That is not meaning this is always the case, but is an example of what a typical cuddle session may be like. So I don't blame the OP for having the opinion that it can be seen as a form of emotional cheating. That is her opinion and I am not reading into it that it is meant to attack or offend.
Now on the other hand there are people who have very strong opinions contrary to what the OP thinks. One thing to point out is that many voicing opposition are paid cuddlers who likely have a different set of lenses on the matter. To you it may be more about providing a service that you feel is therapeutic. You dont see whether someone has a SO as important because you believe in the good of what you are doing for that person, and when you are cuddling a client i can imagine that might be easier to see it as a more clinical approach as opposed to cuddling a friend of a SO. Also, you are not going to be as likely to discriminate due to the fact that there are so many people in relationships so it would greatly limit your client list. Another group who voices opposition to OP opinion happen to be people who are admittedly in relationships, and admit to not feeling they can share it with their SO. So it stands to reason that the OP and these two groups would be at odds re this topic.
I don't say any of this to judge or to take sides. I have stated my thoughts on the matter so don't feel the need for repetition. This is just my observation of the dynamic of this thread. I don't feel the OP means any harm or has ill intent toward anybody. On the same token I can see why it would create some strong feelings in other posters on here. I just hope both sides can be kind and supportive, as there is room on here for all opinions and belief systems. And also that we were all new to this site once, and I'm sure we have evolved different opinions and beliefs through time from being here. I know I have.
@pmvines the points you make are valid. I don’t believe that anyone was telling the OP that her opinion was wrong. Speaking for myself though, I was questioning her motive for asking the questions posed and the subsequent leading questions that were interpreted by multiple commenters as judgmental, beginning with the very first responder. That is where the line was crossed, and why the contradicting voices were getting louder. If the questions really were with the goal of only obtaining information, they would have been worded differently, and not so strongly defended. I stand by my first comment on this thread.
@calineur Understood. I am coming at this from the angle of a single person as well as someone who as much as he would like to have some good cuddles it is very few and far between, so I dont have a dog in the fight so to speak.
The questions posed are for self-reflection on why it's okay to hide something "you" know would feel like cheating/betrayal to someone "you" committed to monogamously. Nobody needed to share their situation or comment if they didn't like what was being discussed or the questions being asked.
The main thing running throughout, in my comments, was solely "We all deserve to be cuddled as much as we need to be happy and I know platonic cuddling can be great and therapeutic, but I don't believe it's okay to do it when it would hurt a partner or spouse." All of the questions revolve around why some feel it's okay to hide from someone they love who would be devastated. They are genuine questions of self-reflection: "why do I feel it's okay?", "would I be okay if they felt something was lacking and looked elsewhere?", "why does hiding it seem like the best option when it would hurt them?"
It had nothing to do with judgement at all. The reason it seems like judgements is because you all disagree that hurting people in this way is a problem, for various reasons - even to the point of being honest with cuddlers, but not with "your" spouse/partner. That's your decision and doesn't sit right with me, which is my opinion, and yours is that it's excusable. Again, I didn't target anyone or call anyone out, so you didn't have to join in, if you didn't like the discussion.
I never said it was easy or not scary to deal with touch incompatibility. I never said anyone was a bad person or somehow "evil". I just posed questions asking why some feel it's okay to do something that would feel like emotional cheating to their spouse/partner. It's a sensitive subject, which is why it would feel like judging if you already feel that it's somewhat wrong, but are doing it anyway.
Your choices are yours alone, but my questions and opinions are surrounding not hurting someone, not judgements of those who are doing things that would lead to a lot of hurt. It often feels like judgements when someone challenges our reasons/excuses with "but what about their feelings?"
The only person here who was in a position like it or a pro who cuddles with married/taken people, who didn't automatically assume I was judging and actually explained why she was struggling with it and why she hadn't acted on it yet, was Mickey - which I'm very grateful for and we've added each other as friends on here.
This will be my last on the subject because you are convinced we can't have this discussion without anyone defending the unaware spouses/partners feelings, or asking questions for self-reflection, being seen as judgemental.
Take care, Everyone.
(Nicely misinterpreted below, Ubergigglefritz. Not necessarily rhetorical, but still self-reflective.)
All I got out of that long-winded response is that the questions were meant to be rhetorical. You didn't really want to discuss anything or learn about anyone. That may be wrong, but that's what I got out of hearing that the questions were meant to be self-reflecting.
Lol, oh well, I'll be done also. "Die forum post, die!!" ;-)
With respect to the matter at hand there no need to ask whether cuddling is platonic or not; helpful or harmful; necessary or option; healthy or unhealthy. I would suggest that all of those issues are part of a completely separate discussion. I don’t think it is necessary that the cuddler “out” their client to their unwitting partner or even ask as to whether there is a partner.
Secrecy, which is almost always destructive and corrosive to the primary relationship is the real problem. Three types of secrecy here: the activity (cuddling); the time which could be redirected to the partner or family; financial secrecy. Whenever a partner goes outside to fill a need not being met in the relationship, in secret, big red flag, and something’s wrong. “My wife, inept and incompetent cuddler that she is, doesn’t understand the concept and benefits of pro cuddling.” Sounds a lot like he guy who is having an affair because “my wife doesn’t understand me.”
Cuddling in secret could be a small version of an “emotional affair.”
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-makes-an-emotional-affair-2017-6
As a pro cuddler who learns that the client is cuddling in secret, without telling their partner, know that you are not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem...
I can see all points when reading this thread. People are obviously very passionate in their feelings on this topic. My feels are this: It's none of my business what my clients relationhip status is. Most do end up talking about it with me, but I wait until they bring it up. I am happy to provide my clients with a safe and completely platonic way to get affection and touch. They are safe knowing that it will NEVER take a turn toward sexual. That comforts them. I have quite a few regular cuddlers that are married. The way I see it is they are going to, at some point, go try to get these needs met. I would rather them do it with a professional cuddler then finding someone at a bar or anywhere else that the platonic line could be blurred.
An emotional affair is if there is romantic feelings and conversations involved. I don't know about other cuddlers but I don't have married men contacting me saying that they are wishing that they could be with me. No desire of that nature is stated. It's much closer to having that best friend that you can confide in and comfort you. But again, that's if this site is used properly.
I will say if someone came to me and talked about be tempted away from their SO I would tell them that they should maybe talk to a therapist on how to improve their current relationship because that is what is most important.
An emotional affair must in some way involve errr? Emotions? ie feelings for the other person, feelings deeper than friendship or therapist/client connection. I hug friends both male and female so am I having an emotional affair with them? I don’t think so. There is much more I could say in response to some of the posts here and yes I most certainly feel Judged negatively by some. All I will say is that I am not here without deep thought (no further self reflection required) and deep concern for my loved ones.
After first reading this thread I thought maybe I was not welcome here or that I was in the wrong place, but thanks to the reassuring messages of support from a number of wonderful individuals I am now comfortable to stay and hopefully find the platonic therapy that will make a difference.
@andy8502 that is great news! I would hate that someone felt chased off or unwelcomed because of one forum post. Cuddle on good sir! No shame in it.
An emotional affair doesn't have to be romantic. It can be getting intimate or sensual feelings met elsewhere, which is what cuddlers are doing, even platonically. It's totally okay if they're in an open or poly relationship (or when it's agreed by other in the relationship), but I agree that it's not fair when the partner would feel cheated on.
Reading this thread, it seems the pro cuddlers defend it because their client base has many married people, but who is advocating for the unsuspecting partners? It's none of our business but we can still disagree with hurting people without condemning those who do it, can we not? I suppose saying "I disagree with doing it behind your partner's back" would limit your customers. Which married person would pay the cuddler who openly says hurting your wife/husband/whoever isn't fair or okay? If I was doing it, I'd appreciate the moral stance, but wouldn't want to feel judged because I know it's wrong.
I am all onboard with platonic cuddling; I love cuddling my boyfriend and I love cuddling my friends, but it's only fair because my boyfriend and I are both okay with it. If he wasn't, it would hurt him and I wouldn't want that.
I can see why married people would be defensive of doing something that would hurt their loved one(s) and I won't comment on their personality because I don't know them, but I agree with those who said that hurting people shouldn't be something we're comfortable doing. Just because we feel one way about something doesn't mean our loved one does.
For me and my boyfriend, we talk about who we are going to cuddle and keep open communication, as keeping secrets shows that something doesn't feel right.
It's not a perfect world, by any means, but we shouldn't be okay risking hurt to others to get our needs fulfilled.
Surely a clean break up, then finding someone compatible, would be better than the lifelong damage being cheated on can do? I mean, it's horrible and hard to deal with, but both parties could be happy - rather than one being kept in the dark with a high risk of being hurt and the other having to keep secrets.
That's just my two cents anyway, as I've been cheated on and it's the hardest thing to come back from. The person doesn't need to intend hurt for it to be hurtful, they also don't need to have romantic or sexual feelings for it to be hurtful. For example, people who have affairs don't need to have feelings for the person. People who cuddle in intimate ways (which is what a lot of snuggle sessions free or pro are like, from what my friends and I have experienced and read) don't have to have feelings for the person for it to be hurtful to the partner.
Good luck everyone and I hope you get the affection you need, but please don't hide secrets that could devastate someone. It's not worth the hurt it causes and nobody deserves to be lied to if they aren't abusive.
Someone will probably be offended by this or misinterpret it, as appears to have been done with other comments, but there is no judgement - just sharing experiences, as someone who's been on the other end of something similar.
I don't excuse the behavior because they are "clients". I'm not even excusing lying, just saying that I understand. That's one reason I'm good at this work. I'm good at understanding different perspectives and being empathetic to people even when they make (or feel they are forced to make) non-ideal decisions. I do feel that most people are inherently good and are only trying their best. But I also genuinely don't feel like it is my decision to make. I can help them process their feelings and ideally come up with a plan to be honest with their spouse at some point (sooner rather than later), but I've never been of the opinion that even a portion of the blame is put on the person their cheating with. I have been cheated on, and I really only thought ill of the guy, not the girl. It's not her responsibility to keep my man in line, lol. But that is, of course, my opinion and feeling on the matter On the other hand, I did think poorly of my friend who was friends with both of us, since she knew about it, and chose not to tell me. So in that regard, I would feel bad secretly platonically cuddling with someone if I were also friends with their spouse ;-) But maybe I'm just a terrible person too O:-) I don't think so though...
"It had nothing to do with judgement at all. The reason it seems like judgements is because you all disagree that hurting people in this way is a problem,"
"Good luck everyone and I hope you get the affection you need, but please don't hide secrets that could devastate someone. It's not worth the hurt it causes and nobody deserves to be lied to if they aren't abusive."
"Someone will probably be offended by this or misinterpret it, as appears to have been done with other comments, but there is no judgement - just sharing experiences, as someone who's been on the other end of something similar."
I'm not offended. And I don't think I misunderstand. But I've been fascinated by the amount discussion around the words "judgment" and "judgmental" throughout this thread. It seems everyone wants to avoid being seen as judgmental, even if they are being judgmental by definition. I do not think that judgmental is always bad or inappropriate, but it is almost always unwelcome, at least when it is unsolicited. Perhaps we should start with a definition from the dictionary:
"Of or denoting an attitude in which judgments about other people's conduct are made."
The key phrase in that definition is other people's conduct. If I am uncomfortable with keeping secrets from a significant other, and therefore resolve not to do it, that's a personal choice. It does not involve evaluating the behavior of anyone else, and therefore is not judgmental. But if I tell you not to cuddle without telling your spouse because I feel it is dishonest and potentially hurtful to an innocent third party (for whom I appoint myself an advocate) it is judgmental by definition. It's a moral assessment applied to the behavior of other people.
Bottom line: "I won't drink, smoke, eat meat, cuddle in secret, or whatever because of my personal convictions" --- not judgmental.
"You shouldn't drink, smoke, eat meat, cuddle in secret, or whatever; and if you do, it's a red flag about your character" --- judgmental as the day is long. We all make judgments all the time. Might as well own it instead of insisting that we don't do it. At least in my judgment. :-)
@quietman775 - I am so in love with your mind!
@BlueIris - re. @quietman775 - I am in agreement!
The breakdown of non judgmental v. judgmental: YES! You nailed it.
I can see where you're coming from with how we all judge, to some degree, but I can also see how the OP wasn't judging like "anyone cuddling in secret is bad", which is what others appeared to be saying. By the statement you've made, which is accurate, everyone was judging the OP too.
Pros were advocating for married clients, so it makes sense someone would advocate for innocent partners.
The OP asked for people's reasoning behind it, so people decided to share. It's been a choice for everyone involved. If nobody wanted the moral side of things, they didn't have to join in, the same way if the OP didn't want people to get defensive, she didn't have to ask the questions.
How far does "it's none of my business" go?
When is it okay to accept someone hurting someone else, particularly a loved one?
When is it time to leave a relationship, instead of hurting them?
How do we trust others after someone has broken our trust?
If our partner doesn't consent to us finding an intimate and sensual connection with someone else, whether platonic or romantic, how is it acceptable (to us) to do it anyway?
All good questions, with no clear way to word them so that they don't ignite defensive feelings in monogamously married or "taken" people who are cuddling in secret, despite the consequences for their partner. Nobody needs to answer to anybody. This whole topic really does seem to be about encouraging self-reflection, in spite of the way it's gone.
Personally, if I needed more cuddles than my boyfriend or husband could give me and he wasn't open to therapy, meeting half-way or me getting them from a platonic arrangement, I'd have to leave, as upsetting as that would be, because I wouldn't want to hurt him and go behind his back. We just wouldn't be matched anymore and love isn't enough for most people, in situations like that, but he wouldn't deserve to be hurt either - even if it wasn't my intention to hurt him by platonically snuggling with someone else in secret.
That would be my decision because I value both of our feelings. That's not for everyone. Like the OP and a couple of others, I do feel strongly about not hurting people. Again, not for everyone. Regular therapy doesn't hurt a partner, but this type can do, if the partner isn't aware and would feel cheated on because snuggling is an intimate and sensual form of affection - particularly since most on here seem to want to snuggle with the gender they're attracted to, which begs the question "why?" if all cuddling would be purely platonic? Especially when it comes to being married - would we be happy with our husband snuggling in bed or on the sofa with another woman or our wife snuggling with another man? Lines get blurred sometimes, even if they start out platonically.
It's tricky and complicated, but I don't think any negative character judgements were made, as most of the questions asked were ones that are sensitive, so they were bound to lead to defensiveness. The overall thing to remember is that nobody was or is forced to participate if they feel judged or don't want to explain why they feel the risk of hurting someone is acceptable.
I may begin to see someone slightly negatively, in regards to this topic, if they see absolutely nothing wrong with the risk - the same way someone who has said "it's none of my business" may feel differently if it was a family member or friend who was distraught over their partner doing it. We all form opinions of people or situations based on our thoughts and experiences. We also make decisions for ourselves that may or may not affect others, based on our thoughts and experiences.
I think good questions have been asked, even if they provoked defensiveness, and I think one or two situations were shared that show it's not black and white, though it still doesn't excuse hurting someone (in my opinion, maybe not in someone else's).
Best wishes to everyone and happy cuddles!
Except it doesn't sound like the OP wanted to find out the answers to any of those questions. They were merely intended to be self-reflecting. So, basically, it sounds like she was just preaching and didn't want to learn about anything anyone had to say. Just the way her responses have come across...
I didn't get the preaching vibe and a few others don't seem to have either.
Asking self-reflecting questions doesn't mean we don't want someone to share what they've discovered.
Not hurting someone, particularly someone you love, is a basic human decency thing, which is why it is such a touchy subject when people are doing things that would betray someone's trust. I've read all of the comments and felt she did listen to people and a prime example is her response to MickeyMcVay. Mickey explained what she was struggling with and OP was very supportive and understanding. When OP wasn't so supportive was when excuses were made for what could be seen by partners as emotional cheating or when people are honest with cuddlers, but not affording their partner the same courtesy.
Cuddles, even when platonic, are intimate and sensual. Many admitting to doing it in secret whilst married would not be happy or understanding if their partner did it too. The OP appeared interested in how people came to the decision that their cuddling needs were more important than their partner's feelings, but people excused the behaviour and called her judgemental, instead of actually reflecting on any of it and giving proper answers to the questions.
Unless I've missed it, I didn't see any answers to questions along the lines of:
"Why is it better to risk hurting them than leaving them?"
"Why are affection needs more important than their right not to be/feel cheated on?"
"Why does it feel okay not to tell them?"
"Would you be happy for them to find intimacy and sensual affection outside of the marriage too?"
The responses were defensive and excuses, with no evidence of actually reflecting on why any of it seems okay, if it could easily cause so much hurt. People wouldn't be defensive if it wasn't morally "wrong". The above questions can't really be worded in a way that doesn't seem judgemental, as they challenge our decisions to put ourselves before someone we committed to love monogamously and not seek intimacy or sensual affection elsewhere, without the consent of our partner and being on the same page.
The discussion was clear from the start. Anyone who didn't want to self-reflect and only had excuses, didn't have to respond at all. They chose to and didn't actually answer any of the questions. That's not on the OP - she essentially rephrased similar questions, presumably hoping someone would actually respond similarly to MickeyMcVay, with self-reflection and concern for her husband's feelings. Some admitted that what they were doing would hurt their loved one, but didn't show any issue with it. I can understand that seeing someone appear content with hurting their partner is not something that sits well with many people - yet this thread appears to have attracted a disproportionate percentage condoning or excusing it, compared to the same issue if discussed offline.
Preaching is along the lines of "you should/must do this" and "this is right, you are wrong", not "why do you feel this is okay?" and "would you be happy for your partner to secretly find intimacy and sensual affection with someone else?"
From everything I've read, the OP tried to get to the bottom of some people's reasoning, but only one actually put their partner's feelings as a priority above their own and nobody else showed any guilt or regret over it. I'm not saying whether they should or shouldn't, just saying that defensiveness and excuses took over, instead of discussing the actual point of the original post.
If someone (anywhere) asked "why do you (anyone) smoke around your children when there is proof that secondhand smoke does a lot of damage?" there's no point joining the conversation if you're just going to say "because I want to smoke whenever/wherever I want to and you're being judgemental by asking me why I'm risking their health" or "it's none of my business if someone smokes around their children; I don't judge". Asking willing participants to think deeper and reflect on their thought process is not judging them. Getting defensive and giving excuses or calling the OP judgemental is not answering the questions or adding anything valuable to the discussion.
Again, the OP is being targeted, instead of people realising that only one person in the whole of this thread genuinely thought about why and gave a calm, clear, considerate answer to the questions, with no excuses or defensiveness. Perhaps that's because that particular member hadn't acted on it yet, so she was less defensive? Just an observation, as the rest appeared to have acted on it already or were excusing it for clients, when they wouldn't necessarily say the same if it was their friend/family member doing it or on the receiving end.
Overall, the OP started an interesting topic that could have stayed respectful and calm, but most of the people commenting didn't answer a single question with genuine care for the partner, just defending their decisions and even targeting the OP for formatting choices. Had that not been the case, this thread would be a completely different story.
“The ego with its protective defense mechanisms is the biggest impediment to attaining spiritual growth.”
Best wishes to all.