Awesome coffee shop sign

bobadevoteebobadevotee
edited October 2023 in General

Saw this on my way to work today, and it made me smile.

This is the best sign I’ve seen in a while. So happy to see more coffee shops asserting boundaries, especially ones with lots of Gen Z workers. I fricking love this generation and how they don’t take any crap.

This is a small local shop with mostly young college girls working there. And they’ve had their fair share of overly friendly customers….

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Comments

  • MarkBPhxMarkBPhx

    @bobadevotee great sign, and a great share! Thank you.

  • PrettyLuvPrettyLuv

    So cute

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    That's hilarious. I used to be a shift manager at a coffee shop, many moons ago, and it was shocking how many guys mistook friendly customer service, for flirting. Some guys even had a thing for "the green apron" of Starbucks, just like guys have a thing for Hooters girls. They would systematically ask each one of us out, one after the other. Did they truly not think we communicated? It was so ridiculous. 😅

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🦄 Enthusiast 🏞 Travel Fiend 🐘 Animal Lover

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup

    Good sign!

    I guess I’m kind of embarrassed to admit I’ve asked various food service workers out. A sign like this for sure would have made it so that if I were Potentially thinking of asking one of them out, I wouldn’t. I would just leave them a note with my number on it and wouldn't make a fuss. 2 of the women I asked out in this way did end up wanting to date me though.

    @SunsetSnuggles That must be really annoying

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    @sunnysideup It was flattering at first, but then you just felt used, when they were just after a Starbucks girl. For the genuine ones who were just flirty, I enjoyed the vibe, but wished they would understand that we treated everyone that way, it was bouncy, friendly customer service, not special treatment.

    Back then, I had such issues that if I actually liked a customer, I put a wall up and wouldn't be friendly or flirty with him, at all. I was way too insecure.

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🦄 Enthusiast 🏞 Travel Fiend 🐘 Animal Lover

  • TD1964RGKTD1964RGK

    This actually makes me feel sad. I’m sad for the barristas who are being harassed. I’m also sad for the customers who do not understand boundaries, and for the customers who do but anyway suffer the consequences of others’ behavior.

    Friendly banter, joking, teasing and even (dare I say) flirting is the norm at my local coffee shop. It’s part of what my daughters and I love about the place.

    Barrista Ash loves sports and we talk the latest news and tease him when his teams lose. Martina is from the Czech Republic and she’s taught us how to say hello (a hoy), good morning, thank you, and a few other phrases in Czech. She loves to talk about current events. Nikki has scores of piercings and loves it when you notice that she has changed a piece or added a new piercing. Kimmy loves the bachelor and bachelorette series, and truly enjoys good natured flirting - which she often initiates. Rohan does amazing latte art and has, for years, topped my daughter Sophie’s drink with some sort of dog picture because she loves dogs and Rohan has a soft spot for her. It’s their own kind of “pup-acino” She’s away at college now and he recently made my drink with a dog on top and said “say hi to Sophie for me” as he handed it to me. My heart warmed faster than my hands as I took hold of the warm cup.

    I get that customer service most often is a bit of “pretense” orchestrated to help people feel comfortable or cared for. But sometimes it develops into genuine friendships. It’s nice when that happens.

    A coffee shop is, perhaps, one of the more likely places for this to happen since it can involve daily visits and frequent interaction over a long period of time. When that happens, your cafe becomes a true “third place” between home and work. This was the original idea behind Starbucks. Hence the comfy couches. But I think they lost that vision when they added a drive up window. My cafe is home away from home.

    When barristas and customers respect more than boundaries - when they respect EACH OTHER as human beings, the potential is there for genuine, warm, friendly interaction that may even involve a bit of (innocent) flirtation that makes everyone’s day a little brighter.

    It makes me sad that so many people today seem to lack the basic understanding about mutual respect and dignity that it becomes necessary to remind them about things like “boundaries” in increasingly assertive ways. To protect ourselves (servers and customers alike) we increasingly do not engage. Service becomes transactional and dehumanized. Eventually we stop saying “a hoy” to our Czech barrista and nobody gives us a coffee with a dog on top. We don’t greet each other by name. We don’t say hello at all.

    Everyone is safer. But everyone is less connected. The coffee shop and the world become sadder, less friendly places. Society becomes more fragmented and fragile. All because some of us didn’t learn our manners and don’t know how to behave. That makes me sad.

    I’m so grateful for my cafe, which is a little slice of heaven. I’m sad that places like it are becoming increasingly rare. I’m truly sad that one cafe had to post this sign.

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    @TD1964RGK I absolutely loved reading your heartfelt post. My customers were so important to me, and I loved learning their names, drinks, and life story. It is so lovely to hear from someone appreciating it from the other side! I also love your grammar and communication skills. 😅 Feel free to PM, anytime.

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🦄 Enthusiast 🏞 Travel Fiend 🐘 Animal Lover

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    Serious question, is it bad to flirt? I mean i understand heavy handed aggression , and inappropriate comments but I'd not call that flirting. Correct me if I'm wrong, i may have come up under the observation of Bob Barker but i do know what's appropriate to say and what's not, but i may throw a word or two from time to time to invoke a smile. Much less than i think id like because im aware people are at work or busy and don't have time for my nonsense.

    Also to be transparent, I've known myself to develop crushes on baristas, bar tenders servers and the like, keep it to myself and just know i that it's my tendency. I've had friendly conversations enough to know this ain't a bridge for me to cross.

    But when i think someone feels down, needs encouragement or to feel appreciated i throw something in the air for them to hopefully get what they need. If i get a laugh or a smile then great. Thank them for whatever service, show gratitude as appropriate and live to do it again/or not. I'd like to think I'm a pleasant customer and most look forward to my visits.

    Today they were busy in our local shop so i didn't bother them with anything but a smile.

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery

    There is a difference between flirting (intention towards showing sexual or romantic attraction) and being overtly friendly. People tend to confuse the two, especially if the other person has a playful or generally more warm and friendly manner.

    Service workers usually are encouraged, or even required, to behave in an overtly friendly way - to create shared intimacy as it enhances customer experience and encouraged customers to return and spend more. The problem is when that overt friendliness is interpreted as flirtation and so bounds of professionalism get crossed - Service workers then get put in an impossible situation. If they reject the customer's advances and the customer becomes upset, it absolutely can negatively impact their job and/or the business. If they go along with it even though they aren't actually romantically/sexually interested in the customer, they're in danger of further manipulation and extortion - not to mention in danger of losing their job for fraternizing or behaving unprofessionally. If the customer is rejected and complains to management that the worker was "rude/unfriendly" or makes up lies to get back at them (which happens way more than you would care to imagine), the worker is again in danger of losing their job. If the worker does date the customer and things go south, same thing can happen. Other customers may also complain of special treatment or of witnessing fraternization during work hours. Customers also regularly take said rejection EXTREMELY poorly because they so misread the friendliness for flirtation and built up a whole fantasy reality - they may stalk the worker, threaten them with violence, or assault them.

    Service workers really cannot win in this situation as they are a captive audience. No matter how they respond to a customer's advances, they stand a very high likelihood of it negatively impacting their job or safety. So if you as a customer truly want to return their kindness and show your appreciation for them going above and beyond: DO NOT HIT ON THEM. In the rare occasions they actually are interested in building a non-professional relationship with you, they will find a safe way to let you know that doesn't endanger their job. Don't put them in the position of potentially having to reject you.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup
    edited October 2023

    @cuddlefaery I told one of the servers that I hit on that ended up wanting to date me that what I did was inappropriate, and perhaps I shouldn’t have done that, but she told me it was okay and that if I was going to shoot my shot there was no other way for me to do it. I guess she thought it was alright but I agree that it generally isn’t alright to hit on service workers because of the dangers you’ve outlined well. And yes I have almost no idea how to tell the difference between actual flirting, playful flirting, and overtly friendly behavior (the definitions of these may also vary from person to person) and for this reason it’s better to just wait for them to let me know if they’re interested

  • Vintage_EmbraceVintage_Embrace

    @bobadevotee Love this sign.
    It is low key sad that GenZ has to bring back a directed focus to general base civilized manners and open conversations on how “you make others feel” with your actions and words.

    Basic level civilized manners and polite convo is soooo needing a comeback!!

    & …. Not just at that coffee shop 🥰🤗☺️

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes
    edited October 2023

    So what I'm gathering is from what you all are saying is... i don't flirt. Gotcha

    But also that what is flirting isn't clear among those commenting. It also could mean it is directly dependent on who is committing the act.

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee

    @TD1964RGK dude I don’t know why you made some long post about connection when this doesn’t take away from that.

    The cafe I went to with this sign still had nice baristas who talked to me and made me feel welcome.

    You also gave an example of the barista initiating flirting. That’s obviously fine. These signs are in place to prevent customers from initiating.

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee

    @BashfulLoner I would say it is always a bad idea to flirt with workers. Especially if they’re having a bad day. If I was having a bad day at work, and some man flirted with me, I’d probably yell at him and not be worried about getting fired anymore. It would be worth it. I can easily find another job 😂 But most jobs I’ve had, my bosses have backed me up when I’ve lashed out against men flirting with me, luckily.

    Women are constantly sexualized or only valued for our bodies… I don’t want to be viewed as some object for affection while I’m having a bad day (or ever, really). Because that’s all I am to you if you’re a stranger—an object. As a stranger, you don’t know anything about me aside from my looks. And strangers flirting with me are ONLY commenting on my looks, in my experience.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup
    edited October 2023

    @TD1964RGK I think if anything, the sign makes the baristas more likely to be friendly as they no longer fear awkward encounters with guests. But it's sad that a need for the sign exists

    Anyway, my main assumption for why starbucks baristas or similar often look and act so indifferent is probably because they are working their rear ends off and are not being paid a living wage, just want to go home and watch netflix and/or study. Admittedly, because of this, when they are friendly and bubbly, it's easy to think "oh they usually aren't this friendly - they are flirting !" Then my logical side kicks in and is like "You've mistaken friendliness for flirting in the past, buddy"

  • CharlieBearCharlieBear Mod

    I will never understand what it feels like to be constantly hit on, but it seems like it would be horrible.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup

    @CharlieBear Yeah, I can only imagine. If I had to imagine, it might be something akin to overly famous people lacking privacy and finding it hard to enjoy simple things like buying a chic fil a sandwich?

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    I will never understand what it feels like to be constantly hit on, but it seems like it would be horrible.

    It is horrible and it’s why I gave up my side gig as a sparring partner.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup

    Hits right in the funny bone

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    @bobadevotee so if i tell a lady i like her finger nails, or she has a nice top im doing too much? Unless that's not flirting, im gather it's not. I'm not saying something like that shirt fits you great or i like how you look in those jeans, I'm talking about saying something nice. I most often say nothing but if compliments are bad I'm doing it wrong. That's why i was trying to ascertain what flirting is to people.

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee

    @BashfulLoner I’m only referring to flirting not being appropriate. No comment on the whole “what’s flirting and what’s not” topic

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery

    @BashfulLoner compliments can be a bit of a sticky area, especially if they are about appearance. Some people love them, others find them objectifying when coming from strangers. I personally try to avoid giving compliments based off of appearance unless I know the person and how they might receive it - the exception being if it's an appearance choice, like a really creative outfit or awesomely colored hair. Even still, I'm hesitant to give them to complete strangers or in situations where there's a professional boundary in place.

    This is just imo, but a man complimenting my top at random or at work might put me a bit on edge personally as that sort of compliment is 99% of the time a backhanded way to comment on/ogle a woman's breasts. One way around it is to be a bit more specific with the compliment - what is it about the top that you like (that isn't related to her figure)? Is it the color, the pattern, the fabric, etc? You can do the same with other borderline compliments - avoid it being taken the wrong way by being specific about what non-sexual thing about the thing you are complimenting is particularly great.

  • LovelightLovelight

    @BashfulLoner I think, @cuddlefaery , whether she was particularly responding to your question or more so making a general comment gave a really great response answering "Serious question, is it bad to flirt? I mean i understand heavy handed aggression , and inappropriate comments but I'd not call that flirting." question.

    Though to give you a bit of my own take to:

    Generally speaking, there are some stark differences between flirting and just being friendly. Especially depending on the level. One of the biggest being that if you're just being friendly and trying to cheer someone up by a pleasant comment, you're not going with the intention of hoping they like you back romantically or otherwise and odds are you're not trying to establish contact with them. You just say something friendly and go about your day. Sometimes friendliness may lead to friendship, flirting or more, though not all friendliness does.

    It's also important to be mindful of the dynamics involved too. Women in such spaces are at higher risk of, if they've not already dealt with, men who don't take no for an answer or don't take it very well "flirting" with them and them having little to defend themselves nor can they really walk away. So if you as a man give a friendly compliment, depending on that woman's lived experiences or experiences on the job, she may be more on guard about it even if she has on a brave face and her friendliest customer service smile, because to keep her job she gotta. Though she might feel pressure and be unsure about what your intentions are. So maybe only when you're gone and that she has some assurance that you probably didn't mean much by it can she maybe feel comfortable with it. It also depends on the frequency and what exactly you're saying.

    There's a difference between constantly 'complimenting' her vs occasionally doing that. There are also a few more ways to be polite and friendly outside of complimenting in such contexts. So it's a matter of are you implementing that too. Also, you don't have to be that way with everyone, though her/them seeing that you are like that with other people around you and with other customer service people can put her at ease. Particularly are you the same way with the ~98 year old lady with the cane and similarly with the buff 30 something year guy or any 'ol guy, and lady around too? Or are you just that way with women who generally one might say you're likely attracted to or are attractive? Also, most of us women take note of things like that and are quite aware of our surroundings because we have to be.

    So if you can establish that you're just a friendly person with 'everyone', then I don't really see there being any issue with it. Can there maybe be someone on the edge of a mental break down or something that while you're just being friendly goes off on you? Sure, that's a possibility. Though, it's also a possibility that while you're crossing the street to leave the store vicinity you might get hit by a car or your goods robbed by some neighborhood menace.

    However, in the vast majority of cases I don't think being friendly with others if you're not hyper focusing on just one person or a thing or two about someone is gonna land you in any issues. Being mindful of the challenges women face also helps. A woman telling another woman "I love your top." Comes off less 'threatening' or potentially concerning, because most times we don't have women trying to "flirt" with us or flipping on us because we said no to her advances. Much less them sexually harassing us. Plus we are not as much of a risk with other women due to their strength or what have you... So we feel more at ease with that. That's not to say there aren't some horrible and evil women out there and that we shouldn't be about as careful with everyone. Though, just speaking generally and about the dynamics at hand. Plus women are more comfortable with giving each other those types of compliments and being pretty friendly with each other as opposed to men probably are with each other.

    On the other hand, if a guy walked up to another guy, say one who is straight and maybe even homophobic, though he was just trying to be friendly and said something like nice shirt or pants, that man might take it the wrong way and maybe flip out on him somehow. It's kind of the same dynamic here. Even if you told another guy nice nails, because natural nails can be nice too, he might look at you side ways or flip out, especially if he's not on the clock. Plus he's most likely more equipped body wise to take you on if need be, so he doesn't so much feel afraid in that sense. Not saying this is okay, though he might even walk up on you and be like "whatcha say, dawg????" While a woman is more likely to freeze or back away and try to continue being friendly in hopes that she doesn't have to try to take 'you' on. So, I think having those kinds of awareness helps.

  • LovelightLovelight

    @Sunnysideup

    "And yes I have almost no idea how to tell the difference between actual flirting, playful flirting, and overtly friendly behavior (the definitions of these may also vary from person to person) and for this reason it’s better to just wait for them to let me know if they’re interested"

    While I don't know where your major difficulties with reading flirting cues stems from and how difficult it is for you, if you haven't done so already, I think trying to learn about it may help and be a good place to start.

    I think it takes some learning, especially for men. As women I think for better or worse, we get quite a bit of practice just based on men flirting with us a lot or a fair bit depending on different factors. While men might not generally get as many opportunities, especially unless they initiate. Even myself, there are instances that I can't figure out if a guy likes me or not. While in some or a lot of other cases, I can tell. For instance, I might be having a normal conversation with a guy and I know he likes me fairly quickly.

    Here's a trick that might help, though I've not put it much to the test yet:

    Look at you, now look at her, then back to you... I swear I'm going somewhere with this, now back at her and then back to you. So where am I going with this? Sorry, I've not exactly figured out yet. Though, I think we are generally most likely to like and be liked by people who look similar to us. This might start with race, then body type, facial features, and structure, etc. The more like us they look, I think generally the better chance we have with them and vice versa. Now there are still a lot more that goes into it. Such as you gotta have good social skills and things going for you in life. Though taking that into account may also help you better gauge your chances a bit more. It doesn't mean that you can't be mutually attracted to someone who looks fairly different to you. However, I think there's some truth there too.

    A little story time lol:

    For example, I remember years ago ending up interacting with a guy I met at a coffee shop. Like the first few minutes we were speaking, he wasn't making any flirty comments, however, I practically knew he liked me. I even recognized his disability soon after speaking with him, which he was surprised by lol. We both have a visible disability and felt comfortable to bring that up early on. Though back to the topic, I didn't say anything about him liking me until like a month or so later when he told me he did, even then I'm not sure if I told him. Because first of, I didn't wanna come across as what's the word... conceited(?)

    and secondly I can't be 100% certain about it.

    So I think part of it is practice/experience, some intuition, and some learning. Also it might take most women a bit longer under normal context to flirt or show signs of liking a guy, even if doing so in turn, than the other way around. This I'd say is due to many factors such as shyness, fears, social/societal conditioning, our differences, power imbalances, double standards, etc. We also need to get an idea of the man and know he seems safe to be around first of all. So that may also make it more challenging for guys to read said cues as accurately. Though one's odds may be helped by learning and ongoing experience/practice.

    Another thing that I think is good to keep in mind when or if it comes to flirting in workplace context, which is something I don't really support..., is this:

    In a context like customer service, if you are trying to hyper focus on one or two women or going about it not the best way, that could lead to other issues I'll mention below. Maybe you're actually even trying to subtly flirt, not saying you should or shouldn't, because... you happen to fancy her.

    Even if she too was into you, she might have another co-worker around who maybe secretly likes you, and gets jealous that you're "hitting" on her. Maybe the other co-worker doesn't like you like that. Though she hates the other woman for no good reason. Because I think a lot of us women can usually read guys flirting with us or other woman pretty decently.

    Part of why we are fairly good at picking up on said social cues is also because we gotta be to better protect ourselves. Because most of us are physically not a match going up against the average man, so early intervention by recognizing if and when a guy is "hitting" on us is our friend. So that if we aren't comfortable with it or don't feel the same, we can protect ourselves and move accordingly.

    So then she may somehow sabotage your chance, because she 'liked' you or hated her. I say 'liked' because if she genuinely liked you, she'd want you to be happy even if you didn't choose her. Who knows, maybe the lady you fancy even has a male co-worker of similar nature as the jealous woman I mentioned, and things might go south for her because of it.

    I remember years ago, I was sitting with an acquaintance outside a restaurant, and a guy who walked out of it, I think he worked there, started hitting on her after we spoke a bit. I felt a little sad, cause I liked him a bit. However, I'm not a bad person and was like "well, good for her." Plus he was friendly to me too, so it was all cool. Though other people can think and feel quite differently. So I think that's also worth keeping in mind when making moves in life.

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    @BashfulLoner - Years ago it was common for large companies (i.e. General Motors) to make their own training videos on various safety and/or ethical topics such as what to do if a vendor offers you tickets to an NBA game.

    Some of those videos were very low budget and used company employees in skits to illustrate what is safe / appropriate vs unsafe / inappropriate. HR managers would then show those videos in training classes all employees were required to attend. The HR manager would pause the video and lead a discussion about what person on screen was doing and whether it was a “do” or “don’t do”.

    I think it would be a fascinating experiment to create a series of short videos depicting interactions between customers and servers then post them on Survey Monkey and ask people to watch each video and rate the behavior of both the customer and server as “friendly”, “flirting”, “rude”, or “creepy”.

    If enough people participated in the experiment I am guessing patterns would start to emerge that would likely differ by sex, age, and ethnicity. The videos could portray a range of comments, vocal inflections, facial expressions and body language between people of various demographic groups. I would further guess that there would be more agreement about “friendly” vs “flirting” vs “creepy” on some videos but other videos would be more of a Rorschach test with people projecting their own experiences on what they saw in the video clip.

  • TD1964RGKTD1964RGK

    @bobadevotee I thought the reason for my post was pretty clearly stated throughout my post. Here it is in brief: The sign made you smile. My emotional response was quite different. The sign made me sad.

    As I wrote: “It makes me sad that so many people today seem to lack the basic understanding about mutual respect and dignity that it becomes necessary to remind them about things like “boundaries” in increasingly assertive ways.”

    I took some time to explain why it made me sad. I do fear that when customer behavior has broken down to the point that a sign like this is needed, we’ve all lost something.

    Kudos for sure to the staff for working under such conditions and still making you feel connected. I wish, for their sake (and for all of ours) that they could do so in a more cordial environment where customers naturally treated them with respect and there wasn’t a need for a sign asking them not to behave like a “creep.” That is, after all, a pretty low standard.

    The sign provoked a different emotional response in me. What made you smile made me sad. I took the opportunity to share my feelings. I thought that was kind of the point of a discussion thread?

    And, given the nature of this site, I did so trusting that - while there may be differences of opinion on some points - my emotional response and the feelings I shared would be respected since they were conveyed in a sincere, thoughtful, and constructive way. 🙂

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    @JohnR1972 i agree, I'd also like to so how varied the responses would be. Because a topic like this has varied opinions as to what people believe as fact. It's as simple as a word that people to to have different definitions of.

    What i came in believing was flirting, as I've read here most definitely isn't... (or I'll accept that). I think people don't even realize how most times their beliefs are varied.

    I could be wrong, but even a clearly stated action will be restated in a response to demonstrate how much more righter the responding commentary is.

    There is also most certainly a sensitivity to who is giving the words to who's receiving them. Somethings are welcome from some people and sometimes "you better not even think about saying anything to me" is the obvious attitude.

    But i digress, i made some of those videos your taking about, well, part of making them.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup
    edited October 2023

    @Lovelight i don’t know where it comes from. I’ve thought it the past that some were flirting with me but it turns out they were just nice. I’ve been on dates where the conversation seems engaging but they didn’t want to date. Ive asked out people and werent sure that they liked me, but they did. I’ve asked out a friend and gotten it wrong. When a date did progress into something more, I did not see it coming - I didn’t see how it was different than the other dates (except for the dates that were clearly bad)

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that most guys probably don’t get the practice at recognizing Flirting because most guys rarely get hit on, and I definitely don’t have many examples of women actually flirting with me. Also I get pretty nervous around people I like or on dates which clouds my judgment

    I haven’t really thought about appearance differences too much. But most of the time, the guy seems to be a bit taller, most of the time for the couples I’ve seen they are the same race (big one for me since I’m usually a minority where I have lived and gone to school/work), so why wouldn’t having similar facial features and body type matter also, so I think you could be right here. I will say they bigger guys seem to attract a good amount of women that are much smaller than them though

    It makes sense that the guy that liked you didn’t open with anything flirty. If there’s a stranger we want to flirt with, most of us guys I think will open up with some kind of lighter commentary to test to see if you will be receptive to just basic chit chat first. If she likes chit chatting with us, we will be more comfortable being flirty. But then again, she might just be friendly so we may never flirt still. I’ve also been told many times that social skills, confidence, and being “successful” is just as, and depending on the woman, more important than how you look

    I try to appear to be safe to be around but I don’t always know what that looks like

    I also didn’t think about the external social influences of hitting on someone at a workplace (which I tread lightly with as you say)

    @BashfulLoner my take of it is that as long as the compliments or flirty behavior aren’t specifically about the body, it’s all good. But sometimes these kinds of compliments might not be welcome depending on factors

  • ReltvlyCanshesReltvlyCanshes

    @sunnysideup based on feedback, I've understood i ain't flirting when i thought i was. Because id never comment on someone's body, especially a lady i don't know. But even then, depending on circumstances they may take it a negative way. I mean i wasn't worried that what i do is out of bounds, i did want to get an understanding of what the ladies thought of the word flirting. It's clearer now.

  • LovelightLovelight

    @sunnysideup

    "When a date did progress into something more, I did not see it coming - I didn’t see how it was different than the other dates (except for the dates that were clearly bad)"

    Sometimes that's exactly the best way to go about life. Not expecting the worst nor the best, just being as neutral as possible without it stopping us from making the moves or progress we need to. Plus when we do get what we want, we may be more surprised by it, which can be nice.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that most guys probably don’t get the practice at recognizing Flirting because most guys rarely get hit on, and I definitely don’t have many examples of women actually flirting with me. Also I get pretty nervous around people I like or on dates which clouds my judgment

    I just found these:

    "Research has demonstrated that a heightened level of anxiety in the moment may cause someone to feel more attracted to a potential partner than they would have otherwise." - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/mindful-dating/202006/are-you-feeling-sparks-someone-new-or-anxiety?amp

    Here's another similar one:
    https://psychcentral.com/blog/why-some-people-love-horror-movies-while-others-hate-them#recap

    I don't know what might help you with your nervousness. Though I remember being terribly shy and often struggling to look at men in particular. I also had trouble even saying hi to anyone. While I'm not mostly over it, I have come a long way since. I remember being so scared yet trying to talk to people or make friends in social situations, that I'd write a note saying hi and even then I'd feel so scared to hand it to someone. Sometimes I'd be sitting in a coffee shop and would tell myself "just look/smile or say hi to that person, it's not like they are gonna flip out and throw a chair at you for saying hi."

    Then I started working on a drastic plan, that I'd find a person or two and give him or her a compliment. It may have taken a little while for me to be able to. Though I managed. One of those times I was on a little something and I saw a couple, so I complimented the guy while directing it at the lady, and left them soon after. Don't try this at home though... I said something along the lines of "Wow, your partner is so handsome." When I interact with couples, I also generally make it a point to interact with the woman first, not that I think she'll think I'm much of a threat of taking him, though still she might feel jealous. That's how I approach it and if I was a guy, I'd mostly first speak with the guy. To me it's a sign of respect too. 😅

    Other times, I just complimented people's outfit or shoes, etc. Then I'd quickly get out of there. Even now there may be times that someone might start speaking to me and if I happen to like the person I might get really nervous and run off asap. Then beat myself up about it a bit. Interestingly, this never impacted me in school or work settings though. However, I've gotten a long way socially and I'm much better able to talk to people now. Those moves helped me to get here and I'd say it's still a work in progress. Although for all kinds of reasons I've not socialized with anybody new for a about year or two now. So I'm not sure how I hold up, although I am not generally scared to look at people anymore. Unless it happens to be someone I like, then I might get nervous and start avoiding eye contact or run off asap if we are talking. Who knows, maybe one of these days I'll somehow crack the code on that too and become less nervous.

    "I haven’t really thought about appearance differences too much. But most of the time, the guy seems to be a bit taller, most of the time for the couples I’ve seen they are the same race (big one for me since I’m usually a minority where I have lived and gone to school/work), so why wouldn’t having similar facial features and body type matter also, so I think you could be right here. I will say they bigger guys seem to attract a good amount of women that are much smaller than them though"

    Yeah and I suppose your last point is true too. I will add though that sometimes being an ethnic or racial minority has the potential to be an 'advantage' or a disadvantage depending on how things are where you are. Although it can sometimes be attractive to others, it isn't necessarily always in your best interest... and I'm not sure if said advantage translates to an increased long term success.

    "It makes sense that the guy that liked you didn’t open with anything flirty. If there’s a stranger we want to flirt with, most of us guys I think will open up with some kind of lighter commentary to test to see if you will be receptive to just basic chit chat first. If she likes chit chatting with us, we will be more comfortable being flirty. But then again, she might just be friendly so we may never flirt still. I’ve also been told many times that social skills, confidence, and being “successful” is just as, and depending on the woman, more important than how you look"

    Yeah, I was saying that he wasn't flirting, at least openly, though I still happened to have read him well. Definitely! Being friendly is a good place to start. That's understandable! I agree.

    A little storytime:

    There was once, when I was quite naive, that I thought a guy was being friendly, he did also come at me like that and asked to be friends... so?? Anyway, I wasn't attracted to him much instantly. Though had he approached me better I would've been open to potentially considering him and attraction could've grown from there. However, he came at me with like a "what would you do for your bf if you had one?" shortly after we started talking on the phone. Which evaporated any bit of feelings I had for him. To me, that's kind of like a door to door sales person coming at one's door and asking "so what are you gonna do for us?" So sometimes it is a lot more to do with the approach and having that awareness.

    "I try to appear to be safe to be around but I don’t always know what that looks like"

    As long as you're a decent human which it appears to me you are and are socially aware, then you should be just fine.

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