@PeopleLikeUs ~ As someone whose PRIMARY LOVE LANGUAGE is Words of Affirmation, I'm blushing and tickled at the "shout out!" Thank you!
@BJC ~ It has taken me this long, and multiple readings, to finally understand that poem! lol However, the one line "Then came a departure.." made me understand why this came to your mind upon reading my previous post. I keep it in mind, nowadays, that there is a beautiful, lively, fun, adventurous little boy within EVERY MAN with whom I interact.. And I'm careful with them... because >> I << "remember" how precious, how amazing they were/ and are!
@fematheist Thanks for reading the poem (John Berryman’s “Dream Song No. 1)—and multiple times too! I wasn’t sure that anyone would read it. The syntax is deliberately awkward and difficult, which expresses the alienation the adult speaker feels. He evokes so beautifully the “2nd grade” (as you put it, I think), boy self: “Once in a sycamore I was glad / all at the top, and I sang.” But then something happened and his reality changed completely: “Then came a departure.” Now he is locked up in himself, hiding away, “unappeasable.” The last line, “Empty grows every bed” suggests not only the constant restlessness that accompanies this alienated state, but also perhaps (to connect with this thread) the lack of intimacy, comfort, affection. Berryman was himself a troubled soul. His father committed suicide, and Berryman drank heavily. He took his own life by throwing himself off a bridge in 1972. But he left us this poem and many others, which transform personal emotional pain into something timeless and universal.
Thanks again for reading.
@BJC~ If only he could have known that his poems of personal pain lifted even ONE head, maybe he wouldn't have gone. Thank you for giving me an even deeper understanding of the poem!
I don't mind hugging men and do appreciate it. I always hug my male family members when I see them, like one where you dap each other up and give and cool hug https://www.wikihow.com/Dap-Someone-Up
Or just a full on hug with or without a few back pats. I've hugged male coworkers in the past and it made me feel a brotherly bond with them.
But, I don't feel starved for male affection nor get terribly sad if men don't hug me or show me affection. I much prefer women because that's who I'm attracted to. I'm not losing sleep if I haven't hugged a guy in 2 years. It's lack of female affection that brings about the touch-starvation because a man touching me does not fulfill me like a woman touching me does.
@Muramosa
like one where you dap each other up and give and cool hug
The dap hug has always fascinated me. I always prefer it to a handshake, especially with someone who I'm not like, really close friends with. There are sometimes when I kind of want more, though as you mentioned below.
Yeah, I love that!
Wow, I would love to go into this so much. I've really started to get the impression that a lot of men feel the same way you do.
It raises a ton of questions I have about cuddling and touch in general, but I don't know if I can bring them up without getting into some much tougher conversations.
But your insight is helpful, and I really think it's a huge reason why pro cuddling exists and is the way it is.
There are definitely things men "aren't supposed to do" and "how a man should behave". After the age of 25 I stopped caring what people think about me , usually hugs are reserved for my best friend an brother, I personally don't like being touched by other men for certain reasons, but sometimes guys just need a guy to talk to, share emotions, or even a hug, sadly there are certain things women will never understand about being a man, especially these days, just as there are things guys won't understand about being a woman. A good platonic guy friend is definitely a must, someone you can talk to in times of need. I work in a shop an paint my nails, wear nice clothes or flashy clothes, so believe me I see the looks and hear the whispers, but I also go out of my way to care for people once they earn it. I guess what I'm getting at is life is too darn short to spend it caring about what people think about you. Once you start to actually live an stop caring what people think, life becomes a lot better I think. Try giving another guy a compliment, I love complimenting people, and men definitely don't get enough of them.
I definitely feel hunger for male touch and affection, especially from straight guys. I wasn’t close to either my father or brother, and there wasn't much hugging in my family. I have several straight male coworkers who initiate the longest, strongest hugs I've ever experienced. I didn't know how much I needed and valued it until it started happening.
@texzenguy
That's awesome. I love people sharing hugs and making each other feel better.
@TeddyCuddle45
Wow, so much to unpack there.
but sometimes guys just need a guy to talk to, share emotions, or even a hug, sadly there are certain things women will never understand about being a man, especially these days, just as there are things guys won't understand about being a woman. A good platonic guy friend is definitely a must, someone you can talk to in times of need.
I think I agree with you if I add in the word "completely" in front of understand. I think gender is an area where there's a lot of commonality and common experience, and when you go through a lifetime of it, it's so hard to get that across fully to someone who doesn't have that same lifetime experience. This is true, of course, with a lot of different facets of life.
But, if there's one hill I feel like I can die on, it's this....men need to open up more emotionally with EACH OTHER.
Men need to learn how to feel emotions other than just anger. Not just to be cold and "logical" and "strong" all of the time. Learn how to manage emotions, and how to express them. But don't just express them to women. Don't dump them on women. Be vulnerable with other guys. Be honest and let out those true emotions with other guys. Don't always put on a tough act.
When I was younger, I only felt comfortable doing this with women. I felt I could be myself a lot more with women because they accepted me and didn't make me feel like I had to hide things about myself.
As I've gotten older, I am so thankful I have male friends I can do this with. Even then I'm still working on being completely vulnerable. What's awesome is as we're growing older, we're becoming more and more open and vulnerable with our emotions.
There are some things in my life that I had never told anyone, but I told a female pro cuddler I'm seeing. And I finally told some of those things to one of my male friends. And it has made me so much incredibly happier, and I think it made us a lot closer. It was hard to tell him, but it was so worth it.
I work in a shop an paint my nails, wear nice clothes or flashy clothes, so believe me I see the looks and hear the >>whispers, but I also go out of my way to care for people once they earn it. I guess what I'm getting at is life is too darn short to spend it caring about what people think about you. Once you start to actually live an stop caring what people think, life becomes a lot better I think.
This has been a challenge for me my whole life, but I'm slowly getting better and better at it. It's right and good advice, just hard for me to follow. But I'm finding ways to build some resilience and get better at it.
Try giving another guy a compliment, I love complimenting people, and men definitely don't get enough of them.
I totally agree, as long as they're genuine and not doing it for ulterior motives. But I think that by taking the time to think about them, we can make them genuine.
I noticed something interesting recently. Ok so I’m from LA and my boys and I out here always hug or dap. Last week, we were visited by some coworkers from Alabama. These are guys I’ve worked with for years but hadn’t met in person until last week. I expected a proper handshake to start but figured it would end in hugs or daps. I was wrong, it was proper handshakes the entire time. I took it as cultural differences, either they don’t partake in male to male contact where they are or culturally hugging co workers doesn’t align with their workplace culture. Thoughts?
@Morpheus
That’s a really good question. I think it’s really hard to answer because it could be so many things. It could be influenced by different culture aspects from area to area, it could be difference in workplace culture, it could be different vibes within that particular group of guys, it could be that they dap hug each other but don’t for people outside their group, or it could be they like the idea of dap hugging but have never thought to do it. Or it could be any combination of those things or something else.
I don’t know if there’s a way to figure it out without having conversations with them.
But sometimes I think with these things it’s a matter of communication. Until this last year, my mom and I would always only give each other short hugs. For the longest time, we had each assumed that’s what the other person wanted. But when I told her about the platonic cuddling I had started, we talked about it and learned that both of us preferred longer hugs. And that’s what we give each other now. Then, she went and brought it up to my brother as well as her other friends. After having those conversations, she now experiences long hugs with all of them and they all really enjoy it.
Obviously you never want to push someone into doing something they don’t want, even with a hug. Just like with cuddling, I like the idea of enthusiast pic consent snd clear communication.
But it’s got me thinking with some of my male friends….if it’s something I would like, I have to be willing to be the one to bring it up and ask. I have to be willing to hear them say no and not feel awkward about it. Because it may turn out we would both enjoy it and have never said it anything, or it could turn out they don’t like the idea and I have to accept it. But there’s no way I’m ever going to know if I don’t mention it.
Just an FYI about men cuddling men…
At the end of May I did an analysis of active CC members in the largest cities in the United States and I shared part of that analysis in a thread I created. Here is some additional analysis I did not include in that thread…
Approximately 4% of the men on this site chose “cuddles only men” in their profile and of those, nearly 100% self identify as gay.
There are another roughly 4% who chose “cuddles everyone” in their profile and among this group, approximately half self identify as gay.
Taking these 2 groups together, about 8% of the men on this site are willing to cuddle other men and approximately 75% of them self identify as gay.
Who a person cuddles is 100% their business, not anyone else’s. I am only sharing this info for context on how common it is for men to cuddle each other. I am not in any way saying (or sending secret codes to imply) this is a problem, it is just context.
@JohnR1972
Quick question: Do you have similar data for men who prefer to only cuddle women, women who only prefer to cuddle men, women who cuddle everyone, and women who cuddle with only women, and how they identify in terms of sexuality?
I find it interesting, because being asexual, I don't have a gauge of how sexuality matches up with cuddle partner preferences.
It's a tough conversation to have because cuddling (at least through CC) is supposed to be all platonic and non sexual (and non-romantic, but that gets trickier). I know for people outside of the platonic cuddling community, they often link cuddling with romance and/or sexual intent.
The whole thing just gets kind of weird for me and hard to wrap my head around, because it's so hard to actually define what platonic means in terms of emotions and a relationship. My mind has always viewed it kind of like a family thing, or like a close friend thing. In those cases, while someone could still certainly not be comfortable cuddling with someone of the same gender, I would imagine the reason wouldn't have anything to do with sexuality. Or at least that's the way my mind perceives it.
But your data, at least for the men only cuddling men and men cuddling everyone, wouldn't seem to back that up for most people. So I'm curious if it's true across the board.
It gets into the tougher and broader conversation of why men appear to be much more touch starved than women, but that's the one that's hard to have.
@Will564 You ask a very legitimate question but I did not collect the data for women (it is rather time consuming and I was doing it just out of my own curiosity). I can tell you about 92% of men on CC exclusively cuddle women but I did not break that down further into straight, bi, etc.
I can also tell you well over 99% of CC members include one of the following 4 categories in their gender: man, cis man, woman, cis woman. CC allows members to select up to 5 genders (out of the 20+ to choose from) so a person could select “cis man” and up to 4 other genders from the list.
For purposes of my data collection, I only used 3 categories: 1) those who included Man / cis man in their gender 2) those who included Woman / cis woman 3) those who did not include any of the above terms
Those who did not include one of the 4 other terms accounted for well less than 1% of active CC users.
The definitions of “intimacy”, “romance”, and “platonic” vary some from dictionary to dictionary and the lines between them can get even more blurry when you move from theory to practice. As the quote (attributed to Yogi Berra) goes, “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”
@Will564
My mind has always viewed it kind of like a family thing, or like a close friend thing.
I can only speak from my personal experience as a straight man. A lot of the emotional component of cuddling comes from the headspace you are in when you begin a cuddle and your relationship with the person you are cuddling.
I have had enjoyable cuddles with women I was physically attracted to as well as with women I was not physically attracted to but was attracted to in other ways - “kindred spirits” who I had gotten to know by private messages and who I felt very comfortable with as a fellow human being that I shared a lot in common with. Those were all great cuddles. 😊
Over the past year, nearly all my cuddles have been with one enthusiast I met on this site last year. I find her physically attractive and she has told me that she finds me physically attractive but we have talked at length and neither of us are wanting a romantic relationship. We regularly enjoy completely platonic cuddles and she falls asleep in my arms knowing she is perfectly safe with me.
Our running joke is that I am a walking “safe space”, wherever I go, the area becomes safer while I am there. Part of that is the $400 worth of emergency medical supplies in the trunk of my car and $100 worth that I carry on my person (and I have the training to effectively use it all). But the bigger part is that she knows I am a protector and would offer assistance to anyone in need.
Women have societal permission to touch more freely than men.
I think this right here is why the idea of platonic cuddling is so completely confusing and unique. We've heard time and time again this is not a dating site, so cuddling is no romantic and certainly not sexual.
But cuddling isn't like a friendship either. Otherwise, the gender thing wouldn't even be a topic to consider.
It's this weird mishmash of emotions that are incredibly intimate and physical. It makes the whole thing so hard to parse out.
The problem is when you mix it in with the idea of people who don't get the kind of touch they need in life and are looking to find it here, it makes you realize how complex all of this is and how deeply tied into so many parts of our society it is too. I've been surprised how much cuddling has taught me about all of the deeply ingrained things in our society.
Kind of like I just said, I can't even go into that because it taps into all of these super complex issues that affect all aspects of our society.
However, the one thing I have been learning lately is that sometimes it's our own beliefs that are limiting us rather than what society's rules are. I think the article in my OP mentions that. How often do we not do things because of assumptions?
for example, let's say I as a man know a woman fairly well, either as a friend or a coworker. Let's say I feel like society tells me it's not permissible to even ask her if she would be comfortable in the two of us exchanging hugs. And I mean doing it in the exact right way...communicating it clearly, not pushing it, looking for enthusiastic consent, accepting her answer no matter what (or whatever else I should do in the situation).
I still have the right to ask. Maybe she is completely happy hugging and wants to and never thought to ask me because she thought I didn't want to be touched. Maybe she is not comfortable with it but would like something else, like a handshake. Maybe she'll think I'm weird for asking or showing any kind of vulnerability as a man. Maybe she'll think I was too forward.
There's no way for me to know until I ask, and I have to be willing to accept whatever happens. But if I never do ask, I'm giving up my own power, and I could be blaming society for something I have the power to change.
I'm learning that I overthink everything, and that's something I'm still working on. But your use of the word "permission" really made me think about so many of these issues and how they might apply to others as well.
I agree 100%. Oxytocin is a powerful hormone that is released during cuddling. For a person who has been touch deprived for a long period of time, I strongly suspect they are extra sensitive to the effects of a flood of oxytocin being released from cuddling.
In a sense, for some, cuddling is playing with emotional fire. I am in no way excusing bad behavior during a cuddle, we are all responsible for our actions, but people’s emotions and judgment can be powerfully influenced by hormones. It can lead to unintended attachment and other ripple effects.
I agree. Our social conditioning can make it hard to know what we really want and whether it's OK to ask for it.
What "social conditioning"? It's always being referenced like it's some kind of aberration.
@TxTom
The main thing that I think about in this context is how platonic touch varies from culture to culture. The biggest example I can think of is Latin cultures. Every source I look at says it is much more common in Latin cultures for people to touch each other platonically in social situations. In addition, from what I've heard touch amongst families is much more active and encouraged.
This is also something that can vary from one family to the next within the same culture. If some children don't receive touch (or even worse, if they receive negative touch), they're much more likely to be touch averse as adults.
I am by no means an expert in these matters, but I view social conditioning as nothing more than our environments and cultures affecting our beliefs. We learn beliefs from our parents, our peers and the media as we grow up, and it's up to us to decide which beliefs we keep and which ones we discard as we get older.
@Will564 I spent some time in the Middle East. It's normal for male friends to hold each other's hand as a sign of friendship.
But is cuddling between men also accepted practice there? This I don't know. Maybe someone can comment on it.
@Will564 I've heard that in cultures where the main language has multiple words for love, platonic touch between friends is a lot more common. Even kisses can be platonic there. I've heard this from members of some of these cultures. Because when there's words for multiple types of love, you don't get locked into such a sharp binary as we have
@Will564 Over the past decade I have spent 3 months Mexico and shorter stints in Panama, Peru and Saudi Arabia. I can attest to male-male platonic touch (mainly in the form of more frequent and longer hugs) being much more common in Mexico and the portions of Central/ South America I have visited than it is in the U.S. and Canada.
But from my observations, male-male touch is even more common in the Kingdom where hand holding is frequently seen among close friends. The Kingdom also has EXCELLENT food 😉
What I would be curious about is if that daily platonic touch makes any difference in the men's lives in that culture compared to ones without that touch (in terms of touch starvation and the need to cuddle). Some of the comments in this thread would suggest not. Obviously it would vary from person to person, but looking at it as a whole would be interesting.
I also wonder some how much modern technology has contributed to everything and increased loneliness among people.
@Unscented_Lemon It's always really interesting how much of an effect language has on everything. I think I tend to underestimate the power of language and how it can bring out all kinds of emotions.
That’s really cool!
@Will564 No, it does not make a difference in men's lives. Hand holding between male friends is the norm in Mid East culture, whereas it is mostly not in Western culture.
And remember, too, while many here complain about the "threat to the existence" of LGBT+, in many parts of the Middle East, LGBT+ existence is actually illegal and punishable by death. That is not the case in the US.
It would be nice to hear the US get some credit for that from some of these incessant complainers.
No, it does not make a difference in men's lives. Hand holding between male friends is the norm in Mid East culture, whereas it is mostly not in Western culture.
I think it's too bold to say it makes NO difference. Like with just about everything in life, it's more on a scale rather than a simple all or none. But it can certainly be argued it the impact it makes is minimal. But I think we'd have to ask a whole lot more people in both cultures to get a better definitive idea. But that's something we'll never know about, just interesting to think about.
The second part is a mouthful that is worthy of one of my signature over thinking long posts.
And remember, too, while many here complain about the "threat to the existence" of LGBT+, in many parts of the Middle East, LGBT+ existence is actually illegal and punishable by death. That is not the case in the US. It would be nice to hear the US get some credit for that from some of these incessant complainers.
I'm not going to address that individual issue openly on the forum (particularly since it has the potential to derail this thread in a direction I would not like it to if possible), but I can tell it strikes a particular chord with you and I'd have to learn a whole lot more about you to find out why, and I think that would be more suited for DM.
But, it does bring up a philosophical and psychological idea that I've looked into and learned about a lot these last few years, and I've had a number of good discussions with my friends about them.
It's the idea of finding the right balance between being grateful and satisfied with what has been achieved, while not becoming complacent and letting everything stay the same. And I don't mean this about any one particular political issue or broad societal structure. I mean in any one person's individual life.
I think some people tend to have a preference for keeping things the same and having structure, while others have a preference to continuously build and improve and make changes. We all enjoy and do both, and both are very valuable. But, I think this difference in preference (whether it's an inborn nature, affected by experience, or some combination of both) can be pretty strong amongst people, and I think it's a very big reason why people clash so much.
It may not seem like it, but I'm actually one the people the prefers structure and keeping things the same. Change has always been very difficult for me. It's why I can always relate to people who prefer to keep things in place.
I also do see the value in it. Gratitude is one of the absolute most important things in life. When people can never have gratitude in life (especially if they feel like gratitude is equated with complacency), it takes a big toll on their happiness and well being.
However, I've learned that feeling gratitude out of guilt is not helpful. It has to be genuine. It takes practice some practice and discipline, though, especially if it's something that doesn't come easy.
But, the flip side is being complacent. I've seen that one of my biggest flaws in life is staying in my comfort zone and not challenging or pushing myself to grow more by doing things that are uncomfortable. Taking these kinds of calculated risks are important in order to maximize things and make things better. The only way in which important things are achieved in life is by continuing to seek improvement.
I do think with the ease of the internet, it's easy to fall into traps of complaining about things and not actually doing anything about it.
However, working towards improvement and making things better is very different than complaining. And every great change that has ever made in the world has pretty much always had people doubting or fighting against it. It's because you never know which new idea will be the right one and which one will be the completely wrong and insane one. There are times in history where the person with the brilliant idea who changed the world was viewed as insane by those who couldn't understand it.
That's why it's a risk. Any new idea will always be risky.
So for me, like with anything in life, I think it's important to strike that balance....feeling satisfaction and gratitude for what you have, always appreciating things as much as possible knowing that your time on earth is limited, while continuing to push yourself to grow and get better, to fail and make mistakes, to take risks not knowing what will happen and be ok with the times it doesn't work out.
It would be nice to hear the US get some credit for that from some of these incessant complainers
American independence was founded and established by incessant complainers and the ending of slavery we celebrate today was a movement started by incessant complainers. Complaining is essential to a democratic society. Suppressing complainers is the basis for any dictatorship.
It's the idea of finding the right balance between being grateful and satisfied with what has been achieved, while not becoming complacent and letting everything stay the same.
I brought this subject up probably around a year ago. In the subject of my thread I asked something to the effect of “when is it ‘OK’ to celebrate”.
Having led departments in a corporate environment, I am a big believer in celebrating improvement / success. One of my mantras was “Don’t let perfection be the enemy of progress” (not my original thought but I don’t remember who said it first). When you celebrate improvement / progress I believe (from experience) that you encourage and motivate people to keep making progress but when you verbally beat people up for not making enough progress as fast as someone else wants, people often become cynical and basically say “screw it.”
Some people are like abusive parents when their kids goes from bringing home Ds to bringing home C+ / B- s the parent doesn’t congratulate them but belittles them for not getting As.
The US gets credit for not being a backwards theocracy. But certain groups in the US want to turn it into a backwards theocracy, supported by people who say that we shouldn't complain because it's worse elsewhere. People who somehow don't think (or maybe just don't care) that all the anti-LGBT legislation constitutes a threat to our existence. You can see this above in the scare quotes around "threat to the existence" which tries to imply that there is no threat.
I don't know how to measure it, but I can't help thinking a culture that fosters healthy platonic touch would be happier than one that discourages it. We know touch has physiological and psychological benefits in both humans and animals, male and female.