Alternative History / Butterly Effect

JohnR1972JohnR1972
edited August 2024 in General

I am heading to Dragon Con over Labor Day weekend. One popular programming track at the Con is the “Alternative History” track where there are 4 days worth of hour long panel discussions about how the world would be different today if some historic event had turned out differently.

What if…
Rome had not fallen when it did?
PA farmers had won the 1794 Whiskey Rebellion?
WWII had never started?
Germany had won WWII?
JFK’s assassination had been prevented?
Russia had won the “space race”

While all these alternative histories would have massive ripple effects around the world (or at least across one or more continents) it is also interesting to consider much smaller alternative histories.

What if…
I had gotten a different college degree?
I had moved to _______ 10 years ago?
I had married / not married _______
I had taken a different job?
I had told / not told ________ about _______

What “alternative history” scenario (big or small) do you find most interesting? If it were within your power to change one thing in history (again, big or small) what would it be (keeping in mind the butterfly effect, a seemingly small change 20 years ago might make the world today unrecognizable from the world we currently live in).

(Edited to fix typos)

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Comments

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles
    edited August 2024

    Fascinating thread, @JohnR1972.

    "If it were within your power to change ... history ... what would it be"

    Keep someone I loved from dying.

    Escaped an abusive parent sooner.

    Not have depression and anxiety.

    Met my boyfriend earlier.

    I know mine are all personal rather than historical. I wouldn't be satisfied with changing a single historical event. I would wish to prohibit humanity from depraved acts of cruelty...against each other, and animals.

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🫂 Enthusiast 🌄 Travel Fiend 🐄 Animal Lover

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    @SunsetSnuggles - Thank you for sharing! The ripple effects of smaller, personal changes would be hard enough to predict. If you had met your boyfriend years earlier, would he have already had the traits that attracted you to him? Would you have had the traits that attracted him to you?

    I really struggle to wrap my mind around the potential ripple effects of altering a “big event”. I think some historic events, as awful as they were, were like wildfires. “Small” occasional ones MAY prevent a much larger, more devastating one in the future.

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    @JohnR1972
    Indeed. It's very hard to say how different things would be, on the front or back end.

    I know that, realistically, had I met my boyfriend years earlier, I wouldn't have been emotionally ready to step into the relationship we have, now.

    Preventing someone's early death may have resulted in them suffering a lifetime of trauma and self-destructive coping mechanisms.

    🤷🏻‍♀️ Life is complicated and brutal.

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🫂 Enthusiast 🌄 Travel Fiend 🐄 Animal Lover

  • [Deleted User]Kimset (deleted user)

    I like to think on the small events like this often:
    If I hadn't married my ex-husband, would I still have my beautiful children? Perhaps with a vastly better partner?

    If I had finished college sooner, would I still have the same friendships? Would I still be as compassionate to non-traditional students?

    Those are just two choices, if I was able to change, which could have drastically impacted my life. I don't believe I could ever change things, despite those challenges I endured. My children and close friends are worth every life battle I've faced. 😊😊

    I cringe to think of may have happened if WWI or WWII had been won by the other side.

    I read a book by Stephen King, 11/22/1963 which explores a bit of the concept of time travel and how the ripples could impact the world, albeit in a horrific manner. The novel focuses on JFK specifically, among other things. It's Stephen King, so it's dark, but I remember liking it.

  • TxTomTxTom

    The further you go back in time, the more insignificant the event needs to have been.

    Had just one of our early homosapien ancestors died before having children, it's likely none of us would be here.

    If it were within your power to change one thing in history... what would it be[?]

    Or... would you be willing to sacrifice your eventual existence to make that change?

    I wouldn't change anything. Even a seemingly insignificant change made with good intentions could have disasterous, unforseen effects.

    As a species, we haven't yet reached the level of maturity needed to exercise this power.

  • Jack62Jack62
    edited August 2024

    we are not supposed to talk politics.....but

    Since you know the rule, please follow it. -JoyfulHeart [moderator]

  • [Deleted User]MaverickLegend (deleted user)

    Wouldn’t want to change the outcome of the Civil War, but would be interesting to see what would’ve happened if the south and the confederacy would’ve won

  • OverTheMooonOverTheMooon
    edited August 2024

    Ooo, sounds like it would get uncomfortable/controversial on some of those topics. I wouldn't mind listening if the panel were unbiased and informed.
    There's a few books that had a fictional world where Nazis won. I think america was given to Japan? Lol

    Anyways, these questions are great. The more personal questions can get uncomfortable too. Even for ourselves. It's been best for me not to dwell on "what if i..." questions

    I think WW2 is by far the most interesting question. I'm VERY uninformed about history in general, and less so about political ideologies from then. But yeah. The whole world would've changed as drastically as night and day I think

  • [Deleted User]gem7 (deleted user)

    What would it be like if prohibition was still in place? How would that affect other industries and our social lives?

  • JubalJubal

    What if Ephialtes hadn't betrayed the Greeks by telling the Persians about the narrow mountain pass?

    Then the tiny Greek army led by King Leonidas and his 300 Spartans might very well have won the battle of Thermopylae. But then, the other city-states of Greece only banded together to fight the Persians so effectively because that battle was lost (sort of a "Remember the Alamo" moment). So if the Spartans had won that one battle, then perhaps Greece would ultimately have been conquered by the Persians.

    How might all of Western civilization then have unfolded? All because of one person

  • [Deleted User]justwanthugs (deleted user)
    edited August 2024

    Please avoid politics. -JoyfulHeart [Moderator]

  • MorpheusMorpheus

    What is there was no Pepsi Free or Tab?

  • MorpheusMorpheus

  • [Deleted User]gem7 (deleted user)

    What if Stacey's mom was Jessie's girl and her phone number was 867-5309?

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    @gem7
    What if prohibition never happened at all? A lot of wealth traded hands during that time and an American Dynasty was created.

    Also, if it weren’t for prohibition people would not have eaten so much ice cream (many bars turned into “Ice Cream Socials” during prohibition to stay in business).

    That led to the Military ordering literally tons and tons of ice cream during WWII to ship to our soldiers and sailors to give them a “taste of home”

    That led to excess dairy capacity when WWII ended.

    That led to the U.S. Government buying millions of gallons of milk to keep dairy farmers in business.

    That led to the U.S. Strategic Cheese Reserve. I am not making this up. The U.S. Cheese reserve is a ripple effect of prohibition.

  • [Deleted User]gem7 (deleted user)

    @JohnR1972 Great stuff. Thanks for sharing.
    The huge milk purchase led to a massive " Got Milk" ad campaign promoting its benefits
    which is still debated today.

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    @Kimset
    Fascinating question about your kids, indeed...how different would their personalities be, looks, relationship with their birth father? (On a side note, I'm in love with your Build-a-Bear panda! 🐼)

    @gem7
    I want that shirt. 😏

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🫂 Enthusiast 🌄 Travel Fiend 🐄 Animal Lover

  • [Deleted User]Kimset (deleted user)

    @SunsetSnuggles
    Thank you! It's my much needed cuddle buddy gift from the kids. To be frank I believe nurture has far outweighed nature in regards to the biological parent, thankfully.

    @JohnR1972
    Now I'm going to be reading about the U.S Cheese Reserve with enthusiasm 😅

    @OverTheMooon
    If you can remember the names of the books, I'm intrigued about them.

    Most people play the what if game frequently, and I'm enjoying seeing the different paths it takes.

  • Jack62Jack62

    there is some confusion here between history and politics, I believe......say good night Gracie

  • IronicMaidenIronicMaiden

    What if I'd been AFAB?

    Who knows, maybe I'd have dated my best friend in high school. Maybe my first try at college would have gone better. Beyond that, I think everything would be too different.

  • BearBear

    This reminds me of one of my favorite Simpsons episodes. A Halloween episode where Hallmark gets a toaster that can send the person back in time. Every time he does it, a worse situation happens. Where he ends up, leaving the alternate timelines and goes back to his missing out on the best one of all.

    Not that I’m thinking about this is also one of my favorite movie tropes. There’s a Star Trek episode where Captain Picard wish. She never got into a fight in star Academy. He ends up, not being much higher than it and if I remember right. Then there’s the Jim Belushi movie of Mr. destiny. He gets his wish and everything changes to the point where he Misses what he had.

    I’ve thought about this a couple times and I don’t think I would change anything. Especially in my own life. At one point I had wished I had never gotten married. Since I had gotten married, I had met some wonderful people which also got me headed towards Cuddle parties and that’s where I found out about cuddle comfort think about it for a minute. I might never have been here if it wasn’t for that period of loneliness after separation.

    I think everything happens for a reason. I don’t know the reasons for everything, but I don’t know if I’d want to change things. I also believe in Reincarnation. There could be things that happen that we have no idea why presently.

    So I stopped Playing the what if game in general. I also tried to practice, not crying over spilt milk. Letting go of things we cannot change.

    One of the most interesting theories I read is what if Hitler never failed The entrance exam to a school of art, and then decided to go into the military.

  • OverTheMooonOverTheMooon

    "in the balance" by Harry Turtledove is a story about an alien invasion in the middle of WW2.

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    @Bear
    That Star Trek Next Generation Episode is called Tapestry and it is my favorite episode of the entire series. It vividly demonstrates how relatively minor decisions (getting into a bar fight) can change the course of a person’s life. Think of the couple people in 9/11 who are alive today because they missed their flight.

    I have no idea how Elon Musk’s parents met but if they had not met, the world would be a very different place today.

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972

    @kimset - I remember the “government cheese” program many years ago but until watching “Fat Electrician” connect the dots I didn’t know the history of how we happened in to have all that cheese in the first place 😂

  • TxTomTxTom

    @Jubal I can't let a Battle of Thermopylae reference go by without quoting my favorite line from 300.


    Xerxes' messenger: "What makes this woman think she can speak among men?!"

    Queen Gorgo: "Because only Spartan women give birth to real men."


  • achetocuddleachetocuddle

    TxTom I was thinking about 300 also. My fave line is when Gerard Butler responded to the enemy saying their arrows will fill the sky by saying "Then we will fight in the shade."

    JohnR1972 I really like this thread and appreciate your great efforts for the forum.

    This is impossible to imagine because surely someone would have stumbled upon mechanization sooner or later, but what if there had been no Industrial Revolution? I would have been dead a long time ago; I could not work that hard, lol.

  • RedFox16RedFox16

    Yes! Intriguing question @JohnR1972 ! I think it's safe to say that most people would love to change things about the past LoL Or Even something along the lines of Back to the Future II 😁🤑

    At my age now, I'm not sure I would try to change anything, since I know there are consequences to any action (ik, being logical is stupid 😜) But it WOULD be fun to maybe change certain financial investments my past self made 😂😂

    Also, @Kimset mentioned an amazing book (11/22/1963) where I think Stephen King did an phenomenal job of painting a picture of someone trying to change history (JFK assassination) and the various fallout from his various attempts. It's was SO interesting that I've re-read it a few times too LOL I know that IF time travel exists....his version (rules of time travel), isn't necessarily what works happen. But he still gives readers something to think about 🤔

    @TxTom along the line of ancient historical events....the book series The Chronicles of St Mary's, written by Jodi Taylor might have covered that one! Where historians in the future go back in time to simply document events and then leave unnoticed. The books are obviously fiction and she speculates about how life was in ancient times....but she's also pretty smart and probably gets pretty close to some things 🤓 Of course things sometimes go awry and chaos ensues....which is great to listen to as well.

  • Katelyn_BKatelyn_B
    edited August 2024

    @OverTheMooon: ""in the balance" by Harry Turtledove is a story about an alien invasion in the middle of WW2."

    I really enjoyed a number of Harry Turtledove's novels and recommend him in general to people who like to read about alternate history. The ones I enjoyed most were his Southern Victory books.

  • starrynitecudsstarrynitecuds

    I don't live by what if in "correcting" the
    past. Bad things can lead to great things. Conversely, great things can lead to horrible things. Messing with things isn't the answer, but moving forward, with more knowledge, is a good plan.
    My movie recommendation is The Family Man. (No spoilers, except the cast is stellar.)

  • JohnR1972JohnR1972
    edited August 2024

    @achetocuddle - thank you, and that is also one of my favorite lines from 300 (along with the Queen handing him his shield and telling him to come home with it or on it).

    @RedFox16 - around 20 years ago, Ashton Kutcher and Amy Smart starred together in a movie called “The Butterfly Effect”. It is depressing but it is easily one of the most underrated movies of all time.

    While it is easy to focus on wanting to change the past, what we ALL need to remember is “we are always 1 decision away from an entirely different life.”

    @starrynitecuds - 100% agree. I am who I am today not just from my victories and joy but from my failures and pain. Change any of them and I would not be who I am today.

    I remember reading a book several years ago that examined the childhood of people widely regarded as great leaders (Churchill, both Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, Generals Patton and MacArthur, etc.). While each had a unique life story, they all had significant adversity to overcome in their childhood. Going back in time and giving them an “easier life” would likely have prevented them from becoming the leaders they became.

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