^ oh ok there’s your shaming right there buddy. I don’t trust your intent anymore. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but it’s kinda obvious that you’ve been baiting the whole time now vs actually trying to understand people. Pushing to say people’s personal preferences are wrong.
Mods seeing this? It’s subtle (on purpose I believe) but clearly saying that people should learn different cuddling preferences. Is that really tolerated?
I obviously agree about the conditioning but I don’t agree with being a dick about it.
@littlepeanut I hope so too. As well as teaching everybody more skills for healthy intimacy in general.
@me2 Thank you.
@me2
oh ok there’s your shaming right there buddy
I have just two questions on this.
1)) Who are you talking to?
2) What are you talking about?
You failed to quote anything. My only guess would be that you somehow see the idea that people should be less intolerant of men being affectionate to other men as saying that people need to learn different cuddling preferences? If so, that's a leap that quite baffles me, and I hope I'm wrong.
The younger generation seems to be learning that pretty well. It's the older generations that need to learn it.
There is the thinly veiled shaming. The older generation needs to learn / adopt the views of the enlightened younger generation because in your view, those views are better.
@JohnR1972 Fair enough, I guess I am shaming people for intolerance. If you support intolerance (as I know you do from many of your prior comments), that's a you problem and you deserve to be shamed.
Thank you for clearing up that it's tolerance that people are offended by.
@me2 I wouldn't let their smug condescension bother you because you'll see it on these forums over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over again.
Their facade of moral superiority is on constant display with remarks about how we're the ones who "have to grow", to "become enlightened," to "learn".
Just laugh it off.
@IronLemon said,
Actually, JohnR1972, myself, and others are the genuinely tolerant ones, unlike the faux tolerance of the virtue signalers.
Our attitude is "you do you", or "to each their own." Cuddle whomever you want.
But such individuality is intolerable to the totalitarian mindset which demands conformity: Men must cuddle other men!
And if there's a man who doesn't, then to the totalitarian, there's a problem. And an "education" is in order.
Otherwise, as is the case in these forums, you get called names. And IronLemon excels at name calling.
most people have intimacy issues with the gender they are not at all/least attracted to physically. meh. They're missing out.
I don't think that I'm missing out. Again the thing most people aren't getting from this thread is cuddling like every other physical touch requires consent. No one needs to give reasons or defend their reason for consent.
You want to cuddle everyone. Great You want to cuddle only same gender. Great You want to cuddle only the opposite gender. Great
You want to cuddle only those you find unattractive. Great
And everything in-between. Great!
Consent is universal and shouldn't have to be justified or open to growth. If you don't want to cuddle anyone for any reason that is totally ok.
Just to point out just because I don't want to cuddle men doesn't make me intolerant but the fact that some don't like the fact that others don't want to and feel like they should change/learn/grow IS intolerance.
There is a saying "how you do anything is how you do everything " or something to that effect.
I mention that because intolerance is being brought up, and in this country at least i believe we are divided by intolerance pretty evenly in most areas. We have been socially engineered this way. There is always a gender divide in some shape form or fashion about so many subjects. I'm pretty sure whatever the subject people take a stance on this side or that side, right or left, red or blue. Believe me i stand firmly on one side of many of these arguments but i don't take offense( try not to) the opposing thought. So i believe we have been conditioned to always stand firmly and feel the need to defend our position.
To often the commitment to our one idea is drowning in a ignorance of the other, drenched in intolerance to more, and soaked in fear of what i don't know.
I don't think that's necessary. Even if you are in the minority of thinking you do not have to defend your thought. You can explain so others may have a better understanding, but defend we should not. There is also no benefit to you to attack the opposing idea. There is no winning in an argument.
But we do it with so many things we seem to think it's normal and necessary. But even during election times, there is no reason to fight over ideas, just vote. There is no reason to fight over preferences, just do what you prefer. There s no reason to pontificate on why you don't agree with anyone one, just don't agree.
*** i thought i should mention why i think we are engineered to take a position and fight to defend it or attack the other side. The reason is it makes money. It appears to me anytime there is a strong line of demarcation from one side to the next someone is benefiting financially. Someone outside of the argument . So it's a shame to take this behavior to all aspects of life.
@YusukeU I agree. Not wanting to cuddle men doesn't make you intolerant. If you were upset that some men want to cuddle other men, that would make you intolerant. That's what I've been saying all along. Some people just insist on reading things that were never said so they can be offended.
@littlepeanut The younger generation seems to be learning that pretty well. It's the older generations that need to learn it.
There right here you said that older generations need to learn to be affectionate towards men is ok.
Like most of the men have said you live your life like you like and we will live ours like we like. No NEED to learn or change what we are comfortable with embracing.
@IronLemon and to be upset that some men have no desire to cuddle with other men would be intolerant. That cuts both ways.bivevbeennovservingbthisvthread from the beginning. I have read very little, if any, from men who have expressed anger that there are men who want to cuddle other men. But I HAVE seen plenty from some who insist that all men need to be comfortable cuddling other men.
This hasn't been brought up from what I recall, but there is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. I can tolerate a position without accepting it.
And I could add that this thread went off the rails a long time ago from what seems to be the original intent. A majority have engaged in honest, fruitful discourse, but the thread has been sabotaged by pseudo intellectuals whose argumentations are weak at best and destructive at worse. This often happens in these forums. It's unfortunate.
@IronLemon You said "there's been several people in this thread who were very explicitly offended because they somehow thought people were shaming them for their preferences."
And immediately followed that up with "The younger generation seems to be learning that pretty well. It's the older generations that need to learn it."
Go figure why people thought you are judging them for their preferences.
“There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.” - evolved from John Heywood’s quote, 1546
Everyone reading this thread, or any other thread I have ever contributed to on this site, can see I have been consistent in this - you could not pay me enough to make me care less than I already do about who cuddles who.
You want to cuddle a man who consents to cuddle you? Good for you. You want to cuddle a woman who consents to cuddle you? Good for you.
But because I don’t want to cuddle a man you think I am intolerant, hateful, and need to be “educated”.
@littlepeanut "I agree dude, it’s kinda nuts. Hopefully, we can teach the younger generation that men being platonically affectionate isn’t any to be scared or intimidated by."
Why do you assume that this is due to fear or intimidation rather than it just being a preference?
@IronLemon " I agree. Not wanting to cuddle men doesn't make you intolerant. If you were upset that some men want to cuddle other men, that would make you intolerant. That's what I've been saying all along. Some people just insist on reading things that were never said so they can be offended."
That isn't what you have been saying all along. "The younger generation seems to be learning that pretty well. It's the older generations that need to learn it."
Your agenda is obvious as I said from the start. Your perception of people's preferences as an artifact of "social engineering" or "intolerance" as though you are more enlightened than those that hold those preferences makes you the intolerant one. Everyone else is saying I'll cuddle who I want, you cuddle who you want, and everyone is happy in the end.
The moderators have received a number of flags on this post. I will agree with what some of the flags and what some of the comments here have expressed, and say that this post is nearing derailment if derailment hasn't already happened. Everyone is allowed to express their opinion, and I believe it is possible to do so without being disrespectful. I'll leave the thread up, and unlocked, but I have a suggestion: If you are feeling angry, fearful, defensive, or superior, it is probably a good idea to pause and make sure the words you are sending accurately represent both the emotional and the non-emotional sides of your brain.
I keep seeing new posts and thinking, maybe progress has been made here. Then I spend 20 minutes trying to parse who’s mad at whom and whether they’re justified. Yawn. In other words…
This is an example of a thread I would like to be able to hide from my feed.
men being platonically affectionate isn’t any to be scared or intimidated by.
This is what I was agreeing with. I don't see how this is in any way shaming someone for their preferences. Only for being intolerant of other people's preferences.
It sounds to me like there is agreement on people making their own choices and other people being tolerant of those choices. As it should be IMO.
There is some counterproductive bickering in this thread but I have found it productive in terms of the net effect. I just wanted to add that I feel there's no need to try to open my mind to cuddling with men, since it's just not in me to want that. However, challenging myself to explore why I feel this way has actually helped me to better understand and accept myself.
One important side theme is the diverse perspectives across sex and gender and orientation. I think an often overlooked reason for the distance between people in these areas is that sexual identity is damned complex and confusing, or maybe it's more apt to say it's a mystery that we shouldn't expect to ever solve. That's the baseline truth, and no one gets self acceptance handed to them on a silver platter. My identity fits in the center of the curve but, though that frees me of stigma -- which is a big advantage -- it does not grant me any insight into who and what I am and what the hell it all means lol. We should not give in to the idea that we have arrived, that we're 100% certain we know and accept who we are, because it's the ongoing process of self discovery that keeps us sane and alive
This is what I was agreeing with. I don't see how this is in any way shaming someone for their preferences.
That statement implies men who don’t want to cuddle other men don’t want to because our preferences are rooted in fear. Likewise, when you talk about the older generation of men needing to “learn” to be more affectionate to other men you are implying our preferences are rooted in ignorance. Based on the totality of your posts, this seems to be an accurate summary of your beliefs about men who don’t want to cuddle other men.
Back in May / June I did a lot of statistical analysis of data I manually scrapped from the CC website. The following data applies to CC users in the United States who were active on CC in May and June.
About 92% of the men only cuddle women. About 4% of men “cuddle anyone” and about 4% only cuddle other men. I personally don’t see a problem here. Everyone has the right to consent, or refuse to consent, cuddling with anyone for any reason.
I am not trying to shame or “educate” men who have different preferences than me to adopt my preferences.
Coincidence: at my software dev job just now we were discussing documentation and someone said "I've found that the more words I write, the less people read " That hit too close to home 😉
@IronLemon is expressing her views and ideas and I don't feel there is anything adversarial or shaming in it in the least . If you feel threatened by it, perhaps that is a you thing.
Saying that men shouldn't be afraid of or intimidated by platonic touch with all genders does not mean they are being shamed or that the reasons for not wanting that is even due to the fact that you yourself are afraid of or intimidated by it . I read that as meaning that if indeed the primary reason is indeed due to being intimidated or afraid of it, then perhaps that is something worthy of exploring more into. I don't read that idea and feel threatened by it. My response for not having men as a preference when it comes to cuddling do not stem from fear or intimidation, however I can certainly see where for others it does. And I can also see where the older generation is historically more rigid with things like gender norms. So I do certainly agree that there is something to be said for being more open to hearing and learning from the younger generation as they do seem to generally be more accepting of normalizing things like platonic touch and seem less fixated on gender norms. Doesn't hurt me or threaten me in the least.
@pmvines True, and also we can choose to interpret someone's alternate view productively, whether the person's intended meaning is obvious or not. I can reflect on whether I'm fearful or intimidated by other men, to my benefit, without getting defensive. It can be taken as an invitation to better understand something that I take for granted, even if I feel no need to change it. When I hug my brother I remember the times he hurt my feelings when we were kids, and I also remember that I love him. I haven't consciously thought about that in many years.
As @pmvines said, I read it as, if you feel constrained from cuddling a gender out of fear, it's not something you necessarily have to be afraid of. Not that EVERY man who doesn't want to cuddle another man is refusing out of fear. If you're going to interpret every statement as an absolute, you're going to spend a lot of time angry.
A lot of people have been talking about fear, intimidation, "social programming" as the reasons why men don't cuddle with other men, but no one is saying that it applies to them, so are those really of concern?
It is also being said that the older generation needs to be enlightened by the younger generation. I disagree with this completely. I would imagine that someone who has lived a significant portion of their lives having to suppress some of their preferences to now be living in a time where those preferences are now much more widely accepted by society would be quite liberating. I know people personally for whom this is the case. For someone whose preference is only women, their situation is unchanged, and whatever learning anyone believes think they need will not change their preferences.