Forum and Moderator feedback

SideonSideon
in General

Forum and Moderator feedback

I know there has been confusion and complaints about moderator participation, or lack thereof, in the past. Give me a moment to introduce some of the moderator roles and principles that guide us before I solicit feedback. Your feedback.

What does a moderator do?

Moderators respond to reports, flags, and direct messages. We respond to harassment, disputes, fictitious accounts, spam, and incorrect forum posts (such as posting a cuddle request in the general forum, or pro advertisement in general forum). We respond to reported/flagged personal attacks, and sometimes both parties will be given a mutual "time-out" warning to ignore/not address the other for a period of time. [No stones in glass houses here, I've had my own warnings in the past.] We may suspend accounts during investigations. We may ban accounts for breaking the TOS or offering non-platonic services or requests. We have sometimes closed and deleted threads, particularly if they're too heated, have devolved into personal attacks, or are completely off-topic.

We are human and we have sometimes been wrong.

Aside from @Mark owning this site, we, your moderators are volunteers. We are not paid to do this. We care about this community and want it to thrive and succeed. Before we were moderators, we were enthusiasts and still are.

Forum Principles

Each of the respective forums are generally autonomous. On and off topic posts will ebb and flow, like every other online community experiences. That masterpiece you wrote? We may not have seen it or read it unless we're reading as an enthusiast. Was your post flagged? Then yes, we read it, but through the lens of Terms of Service (TOS) and forum-appropriateness. Personal attacks? Flag them, report them to a moderator @mark, @SoulcuddlerZ, and/or myself @Sideon.

We want to encourage and promote open discussions where people are respectful of each other. Like every other online community, this area of respectfulness is one of the most challenging to maintain and monitor. We are mindful of the three member groups (enthusiasts, pros, and clients).

Your feedback

The general forum is yours. It's everyone's, but as a moderator, this is also my main responsibility. In my real life, I challenge my teams to bring solutions and suggestions, not just complaints, and I'll do the same here:

What are some ways you'd suggest for us moderators for forum participation, and for supporting/sustaining this community? What can we improve? How can we do better?

Thanks for your time.

-Sid

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Comments

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod

    What an excellent post, thank you Sid.

    I will have a think.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    @Sideon ~ That's a fantastic overview!! And you're a volunteer??! Thank you! To you too @SoulcuddlerZ ~ Thank you both for all you do in tending to issues and for helping maintain the boundaries/expectations we've all agreed to by being here! 🤗

    I don't yet have any well thought suggestions at the moment... So, tbc...

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    When possible, I believe a proactive approach is better than a reactive one. In other words, you sometimes see threads go sideways early on yet they drag out for days in that condition. I think a gentle nudge or warning at the point where things start to go south could pull things from the brink of civil decay. In the past it would devolve and after the show punishment was meted out without much comment or explanation. What good is that? Why let it happen then do something about it when it is crystal clear there was a problem 100 posts ago?

    Second, if a spat arises between two parties that rises to the level of suspension, both parties should be given a suspension. Even if one person has a point, it takes two to tango and by feeding into the dispute the other party has just as much guilt. This sometimes stems from someone trying to play forum cop, escalating a situation, then getting the other person suspended while they skate free. The forum cop should be the moderator, not someone who frequents the forums everyday and feels entitled to mold everyone to their conception of what the forum should be.

    Just my two cents from someone who, to be transparent, has also had their hands slapped for no-no’s in the forum.

  • MrPaulMrPaul

    Thanks @Sideon @SoulcuddlerZ for volunteering your time to help maintain this website, and also thanks @mark for creating it!

    I agree with @FunCartel in the first point.

    I see discussion topics go off on a tangent all the time. It’s not really a violation of rules, but it would be better if things stayed on topic, I’d not mind seeing “This comment has been deleted because it is off topic” replace some comments.

  • DesignergirlDesignergirl

    @FunCartel _~~> Second, if a spat arises between two parties that rises to the level of suspension, both parties should be given a suspension. Even if one person has a point, it takes two to tango and by feeding into the dispute the other party has just as much guilt. --
    I don't get it. If on a thread a person makes a point, someone disagrees and they both debate for while they should be suspended? What constitutes a spat? I would have PM'd you about this but you blocked me. (?)

  • GaryGary Mod

    The forum can be a caldron of differing opinions so I'm not sure I fully agree with a "proactive" approach, as that may seem too punitive to action things pre-emptively.

    The way the forum has been moderated so far has been to close topics that are obviously derailing, becoming toxic or generally an unpleasant place for everyone, or of course the terms of the website have been broken. Jumping in too early could be seen as a dictatorship and not allowing exchange of fair information, so there's definitely a balance to be made.

    Agree with the point that two arguing parties should take their discussion to PM if it's not helping anyone. A good approach would be to remove posts, then warning or a temporary timeout. Repeated violations lead to losing forum privileges.

    We're all here for the cuddles and to make this a better place. Make the forum the place you want to be.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited November 2020

    @Gary Proactive in what you are citing is not punitive. I think you glossed over where I said it is a “gentle nudge” not punishment. What this entails is the moderator stepping in early on with a post stating for the two parties to cool it before repercussions are dropped on them. Too many times it has devolved into personal tit for tat and suddenly the hammer is dropped without warning after several days of this nastiness. I think a preemptive post with a warning might chill out the discussion before it becomes nasty. Proactive in the sense I am trying to convey is non-punitive.

  • GaryGary Mod

    @FunCartel totally agree. It's worth noting that moderators cannot realistically read every post, so sometimes it could be days before a post gets to the moderators eyes for attention. There is responsibility on members themselves to obey by terms of the forum and keep things civil. Obviously that doesn't always happen, which is why forums have moderators to eventually step in.

    Also to clarify - my original comment was about stepping in too early and shutting down a discussion could create a view that moderators are censoring information and not allowing a reasonable evolution of the discussion.

    De-escalating a situation before things become nasty is a sensible approach. Out of interest, do you have any recent examples where an intervention from a moderator could have pre-emptively been made?

  • MarkMark Mod
    edited November 2020

    My personal preference is for a derailed topic to be split into two. The part that contains the off-topic posts is then moved into the 'Off-topic discussions' thread. However, this often isn't practical because on review there can be two sets of conversations mixed together rather than a clean digression.

    In the scenario that a moderator happens to notice a topic derailing in the early stages, I agree that a soft nudge can be an effective way to save the thread. Ideally we want to minimise legitimate topics being closed because its most recent activity went off-topic.

    In reference to punitive action for these types of mild issues, a suspension might not be warranted. Recently we introduced a Timeout feature for moderators that can be applied in a limited way as to only disable forum participation.

  • DesignergirlDesignergirl

    @sideon
    1. You stated to me last night moderators don't read everything and its been echoed here. But there are 3 of you and this isn't exactly reddit so my first suggestion is to do so to keep this proactivity. Clearly I don't mean every word of all 95-ish pages, just new entries. If you don't have time why volunteer?
    2. Obviously, I was going to point out that 2 of my threads contained numerous personal attacks, trolls and baiting without a peep from moderation for weeks after they were reported on by several members including myself. Took an entire evening of my life debating this before you acted. On my suggestion. And after you threatened to ban me more than once for not liking my tone. And there are still numerous violations on both threads that were not edited. So the basics of responding to various reports were not met, in this case. Even your post was my suggestion, although I noticed you lacked the confidence to make it a poll.
    3. I perhaps naively hold the notion that on CC especially there is an extra expectation that moderators be a little smarter than the average bear, as well as more wise, compassionate, and fair. In all my interaction with you I wasn't convinced you had any more of qualities than I do, and just off the top of my head can think of at least 10 forum members who have those qualities in spades. I'm going to suggest @pmvines, @quixotic_life, @cualtzin, @me2...and many more. I don't actually believe any of you would replace yourselves, just suggest you read their posts.
    4. "We are human and sometimes wrong." So apologize, humans do that. None of the moderators apologized to me.
    5. One of the forum rules is to not start a venting thread. The idea of going back over all those threads fills me with ennui but there are quite a few threads made by men that can only be described as such, and they complain that women aren't doing what they want them to do. It's a very tired complaint.

    What I'm trying to convey with all of this is that if the forum becomes a better space, the demographic imbalance between the men and women on this site may change. Reading some of the threads on here is more likely to facilitate misanthropy than a desire to cuddle. And you have only male moderators, what is up with that? I still insist that by allowing misogyny on the forums you degrade them. Anyone who doubts or objects to that word should read my PSA post and then follow up. PM me, I don't block anyone.

    @Gary Good suggestion about taking things offline. On my very first thread on my very first forum this did not occur to me.

  • SideonSideon

    @Designergirl
    1) As was said, we read posts based on our interests and personal time. Thanks for the suggestion.
    2) I decided not to do a poll. I wanted a chance for dialogue, discussion, and feedback for this forum and for the moderators. This was not a thread for you or about you. Thanks the for the initial motivation, though.
    3) The folks you mention are stellar humans: please treat them with the utmost respect. The site is privately owned, not a democracy, and not up to any one individual who is or isn't a moderator. Some of the folks you mentioned have already been asked to moderate and they declined.
    4) I'm sorry you experienced personal attacks. We rely on the community to report post or users for personal attacks, questionable material, etc. I removed several personal attacks towards you. If I missed anything, then flag them. In no way am I reading threads or posts looking or assuming what may or may not be offensive to you. As has been stated, the forums are fairly autonomous, but we respond to flagged posts and direct messages and users who break the TOS.
    5) If a thread or post breaks the rules, report it. If you expect me to know or control what men do or don't complain about, that's a different discussion and topic. Folks on here will read and/or pass on that which they're interested.

    This is a great community, and I hope your voice can contribute to that "better space" and a more balanced demographic.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life
    edited November 2020

    I'd like to see more consistency in moderator involvement. @Mark has stated (something along the lines of) moderators are given free rein to make decisions, and don't have to get his approval to act.

    Fair enough, but there have been some big swings in the way things are dealt with.

    Threads being fully deleted instead of a warning being given (note: the two I'm referring to went off topic, got heated, and had a hostile tone toward the end, but there wasn't derogatory name calling or anything else that seemed to violate the TOS)

    More recently, I'm sure I must be missing some details that resulted in @Designergirl being banned, but nonetheless, I feel for her because of what she went through with her first, then subsequent forum posts, and what came as an unfair/inappropriate handling of the situation by moderators.

    On her first, for whatever reason(s), there was a lack of immediate/timely moderator involvement when she was getting repeatedly slammed with offensive/derogatory name calling. When they did step in, the action taken was to close the thread with a "try again" note to her. But the line-crossing posts remained, and the user(s) who made the comments appeared to have zero consequence. When she did "try again" she was again the target of other users and (if memory serves) that one was also closed, and it was on the third where some bridge building took place.

    Again, I may be missing some details, but given what I know, I think if one understood how hurt she must have been, feeling a need to defend herself, etc. her "tone" becomes more understandable. Without knowing what led to it (only seeing what's here) I think it's too bad she's banned, because I've seen much worse by others and they're still here, and she often had some interesting takes/points of view on things.

    My suggestion for moderators would be to act with more consistency in how issues are dealt with, and for them - @Sideon @SoulcuddlerZ and @Mark - to develop a flowchart/checklist that can be shared with the community that defines:

    Current moderators (and their roles)
    What merits reporting
    How to report
    Types of actions (What happens when/Why implemented)
    Turn around/Timelines
    Dispute resolution (a how to)
    etc.

    And to keep it simple (for understanding and for flexibility in administration/implementation too).

    Thank you for being opening to input and feedback, and for volunteering your time to help maintain this amazing space!!! 🤗🥰

    edited|for formatting

  • UKGuyUKGuy

    Looks like the author of the post I'm referring to has been banned but I have seen more misandry in these forums than I have misogyny.

  • [Deleted User]DarkLordChungus (deleted user)

    @UKGuy

    Evidence?

  • [Deleted User]DarrenWalker (deleted user)

    @UKGuy and @UltimateChungus: Well, there are more men here than women. Hate on somebody in the forums—even if you do it totally randomly, odds are good it's gonna be a guy. And self-hatred isn't exactly rare among humans anywhere, is it? More men here to do that than women. So. [shrug]

    Besides, misogyny is so standard it's easy to overlook, which makes any misandry at all stand out more.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited November 2020

    @UKGuy not really. Majority of posts complaining about men are due to boundary pushing, the way they treat women online or in person , and treating them like prostitutes. Majority of posts complaining about women are due to not cuddling with them , not returning their messages, and about the fact that pros charge . There is a certain entitlement that lends itself to these complaints and rants that can be seen as misogynistic. That is different than a woman complaining about being treated like something to rub yourself against for jollies. You may not fall into this category, but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing

  • cuddlerforu24cuddlerforu24

    I kind of disagree with the idea that forum discussions presented by men ... describing an absence of responses , not cuddling , or an exorbitant amount some pros charge could be classified as misogyny. I haven’t read any hatred of women in these discussions , even reading between the lines . Of course I’m no expert on the subject.

  • pmvinespmvines

    @cuddlerforu24 I agree it is not outright hatred, just that the entitlement lends itself to misogynistic attitudes. A lot of the isms are not in your face hatred, that is why it often goes unnoticed because we just get used to it after a while. And I am not saying that complaints of the above mentioned nature are necessarily born of misogynistic attitudes. Sometimes it is , however even when not it can be interpreted that way . I try to not tell someone when they are or are not being offended, not treated justly , or oppressed because it just isn't my experience as a white hetero dude. So if a woman tells me certain things to them and other women are inherently viewed as misogyny, I tend to give them benefit of the doubt.

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    I think it would be helpful if there was more transparency. I've had my comments deleted without any information given to me. I have never name called, baited, belittled or any such thing on these forums. So to me it seems that censoring for the sake of it happens. I don't know if it's happening to others or not but it not only makes me feel like a crazy person because I don't know if I even ever wrote it. But it also makes me wonder why a comment that I posted would vanish when there are comments all over this forum that are: more offensive, baiting, discriminatory, ridiculous, sexist, etc. and they remain.

    I would like to add that I understand this is a privately own website and as such it's at @Mark 's discretion to run it as he would like. BUT I don't disagree with @Designergirl about women being treated differently here. There's a big sense that women better fall in line or else, especially for the pros. All that to say ... making a womxn a moderator may be helpful.

    Anywhosers, I do appreciate the work that's done to keep this site afloat.

  • GaryGary Mod
    edited November 2020

    It would be great if we could provide some actual examples of misogyny/discriminatory/sexist/offensive on the forum and how you would personally act on those if you were a moderator - warn? ban the indiviual? Edit the post?

    Also it's worth stating (the rather obvious) that a forum is full of a variety of different people, opinions and experiences. Taking offense to something doesn't mean you are automatically granted the right to have that other persons post edited, or have them banned.

  • GaryGary Mod

    @Sashamcgee if you could provide examples that would be helpful.

    "There's a big sense that women better fall in line or else, especially for the pros." could you eloborate? What is the meaning of the "or else" part you are refering to?

  • [Deleted User]cualtzin (deleted user)
    edited November 2020

    There’s a gradient between civility and misogyny. I imagine textbook offenses are dealt with quickly and effectively. But I’ve learned that there are a range of comments and behaviors which fall somewhere in between. And these are the most difficult to address. Sometimes people don’t even realize that they’re making others uncomfortable. Like @Gary, I think it would be beneficial to discuss specific examples, because that’s the best way to learn. Maybe a topic for another thread. But it may be a challenge to find these voices. Because going down this road can open the door to criticism and more.

    Getting back to the original discussion. I think it would be great if there were more moderators. Additional reasonable minds is always a good thing. It would lessen the burden on each of the volunteers. And it would increase the probability that one of them would be there, at the right place and time, when things go off the rails.

    As others have stated I appreciate the site, the participants, and those who run it. I found what I was looking for here, and I don’t think I could provide a stronger endorsement.

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod
    edited November 2020

    I've had my comments deleted without any information given to me.

    @Sashamcgee that's not ok. You are quite right, an explanation should always be given - either publically or privately - if a something is deleted.

    What happened is indicative of poor moderating practice or - as I suspect - overworked moderators.

    As I understand it we now have two ( @Sideon and @SoulcuddlerZ), but that is not enough. If they both happen to have a busy few days at work we could end up with no moderation at all, and it's perfectly clear that that is not acceptable on this forum. We need some strength in depth.

    Any active forum needs at least four moderators in order to cover absenses effectively. (In my experience even that requires coordination and planning between them.) Since both the existing ones are from the client/enthusiast community, it would nice to have at least one from the professionals (while remembering that character is the most important thing). If you have any thoughts as to who might make a good moderator, do not post them here: message @Sideon and @SoulcuddlerZ privately.

    @Mark should not be involved in day to day moderation. Ideally, the moderating team should manage itself as well as manage the forum. Mark's role should be to lead policy, manage the moderators if required, and mediate in serious disputes.

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    @Gary unfortunately I don't have the spoons to reread the thousands of posts and comments on these forums. But if you go searching you'll find quite a few talking about how women a money hungry and how we are rude and never respond to men. You'll also find warnings of sorts about how women who speak their minds lose clients. And those are just three of the most prevalent sources that I can think of right off the top of my mind.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited November 2020

    And I have been told I have my head in the sand , that I am white knighting, and that I am simply trying to impress women and stay on good terms with them for calling out behaviors and sticking up for women on here . And those are the public forum comments , not ones sent privately which tend to be a little less friendly, such as the time a longtime site member chastised me for defending the pros and that I should join his offsite chat group where he and other men talk about ways to keep the upper hand on pros , keep their prices down , how to get them to give you free cuddle time , share Intel, etc.

  • GaryGary Mod
    edited November 2020

    @Sashamcgee well if you can provide specific examples that would help, but understand if you don't have the time to bring specifics. The generalized examples you gave aren't misogynist in my view. However I can understand how they may be taken in a negative way.

    I personally don't believe we should be censoring or making people tell a specific narrative - if people's experience on a website is for them to express they have lack of responses from females, or their view is women are money hungry, rude, or whatever, that's their view, nobody else’s. It works the other way as well, where women express their negative experiences with men. In either case, we shouldn't censor either of these experiences and viewpoints on the forum.

    This topic is about gathering a framework for mods to effectively action clear wrongdoing. The unfortunate reality is that there will always be differing opinions and sensitivities, but that doesn't indicate a need for moderator action.

  • SashamcgeeSashamcgee

    @Gary it might be helpful if you read my post again. Because if you did you might notice that I stated in my very first sentence the framework I would like to see. Transparency.

    Everything else was just to explain why I would like that. And though you don't like my reasoning it doesn't change the fact that it c/would be beneficial.

  • cuddlerforu24cuddlerforu24

    @pmvines and I have public ally been accused of being a previously permenentlynbanned account holder

  • pmvinespmvines

    @cuddlerforu24 Well not permanently , otherwise you wouldn't be here now. Not sure how that ties into the topic but ok

  • cuddlerforu24cuddlerforu24
    edited November 2020

    No , agreed it does not tie into the topic , exceot the discussion went off a little . I just jumped on the band wagon , I kind of went with the flow. You comment that the forum or some of the forum members attack you with white knighting I just wanted to put comment that someone attacked me with being banished and sneaking back into the community

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