Saying NO vs Saying STOP 🛑🚨📢

sillysassysillysassy
in General

There was a discussion about CONSENT around posting pictures etc. and it reminded me of this FABULOUS video I saw.

"Saying NO is a different experience than saying STOP."

In the consent world we often talk about no means no, it's important to respect to a no, all of that, but saying stop to an action requires something different of you than saying no to a question.
Like if someone says to you... "Can I kiss you?" or... "Would you like to do XYZ?" They're saying like... "Hey I don't know the answer, so here's a moment for you to pause and think through the options before you make a decision, cuz it's your decision to make
Now, saying no in a situation like that absolutely still comes with its challenges, but they are not the same challenges as when the person does not ask you first and they just go and do and you have to say stop.
That person has essentially already communicated to you NOT... "Do you want this? Do you like this? What's your... part in this decision?" They are saying

"You don't get a part in this decision, I am making all the decisions for us,"

So engaging in any kind of communication is going to be that much harder because they have not shown themselves to be someone who is open to hearing your say, and thinks that your say is important.

I had to write out her words because it was so impactful for me. The emphasis is mine and based on her voice, also... please don't judge me on the grammatical correctness of the transcript. 😁

Growing up I had always heard about CONSENT in a positive way regarding SEX or drugs, but not about the day to day aspects of life. After a few years of learning about this idea of consent (in a real way) through the cuddling world, I have a new perspective. EVEN AROUND NON-TOUCH ASPECTS like when someone tries to force me to do a job their way or eat what they're eating etc. etc.

I think I'll add a poll. Its sort of like a study, but only of a biased sub group of like-minded people because we're already on a Cuddle Comfort website that has TOS about Consent. 🌈🦋😊

Of course I love the sharing of stories if anyone would like, and as always... please be kind and mindful that we are all uniquely different individuals with different experiences.

  1. Have you ever REALLY FELT THIS DIFFERENCE between saying NO and saying STOP?53 votes
    1. ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY
      47.17%
    2. Yes. Just Yes. SillySassy, you're always sooooooooo DRAMATIC! :)
        9.43%
    3. NO, I've never felt the nuanced difference
      18.87%
    4. Ummmmm. I'm just here for the popcorn.
      24.53%

Comments

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery

    I was afraid when I first saw the title that this was going to go a different direction.

    While I believe discussion of "no vs stop" such as this is important for people to better understand and internalize boundaries and consent, in practical terms they are the same thing. A "no" can be said at any time, consent can be withdrawn at any time. It should not take the word "stop" for someone to realize they've crossed the line.

    As someone who has been assaulted, words can be difficult in the moment and sometimes the word repeating in your head, the only word you can get out, is "no". If you're with someone doing something and they suddenly say "no", it is a pretty damn clear indicator that things need to be stopped and discussed.

    That said, it abso-freakin-lutly is harder to self advocate for oneself in the moment like that when boundaries have already been crossed. Sometimes it's just that the other person assumed a "yes" and failed to ask for consent, and other times it's w blatant disregard for autonomy as described in the video. Either way, having to speak up knowing there's a good chance of a negative reaction or with a big unknown reaction because of the situation is NOT easy. It's even less easy if one already has issues maintaining healthy boundaries and past touch trauma...as a whopping estimated 80% of us do.

    The best thing any of us can do to make it easier? Practice. Practice asking, practice answering, practice saying "no" and "stop" to even ridiculously small, silly, everyday things.

    "May I hold your hand?"
    "No, but would you like a hug instead?"

    "Can I give you a hug?"
    "No, thanks. How about a fist bump?"

    "Would it be ok for me to stroke your hair?"
    "No."

    "Stop touching my shoulder."
    "Oh, I'm sorry! I'd assumed it was ok. My bad. I'll ask next time."

    "I need you to work until 6:30 today because Jerry left early."
    "No, I can't do that. Is there some other way I can assist getting his work done?"

    "STOP calling me Billy. My name is Bill."

    The more we make it the norm to communicate boundaries and ask for consent on smaller things in every day life, the easier it is to do it with bigger things under pressure.

  • BoomerSpoonerBoomerSpooner

    “No, let go of my Eggo.

    “Stop eating my Eggo.”

    There is a huge difference in rhyme and meter.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup

    Recongnizing boundaries doesn’t seem universal, and many people prefer/rely on non verbal consent which creates the need for “stop” scenarios

  • jplemmonjplemmon

    At the same time, I probably would not see someone who responded that bluntly. They just come across as bitter and angry.

  • BoomerSpoonerBoomerSpooner
    edited February 17

    “Stop” normally occurs after the opportunity to ask for consent has passed. Or in other words, stop is the reaction to an assumption.

  • CuddleSquidCuddleSquid

    Absolutely! I hate having to say stop, hate not being asked and how very often people don't really ask because they already do the action as they are saying it and before I ask able to answer -- so they've already inflicted pain on me, or made it harder to say stop if it feels good technically.

    And I find it very triggering if I have to say no or stop several times. Once should always suffice.

    And it applies to anything in life for sure.

    i find it so concerning how it seems most men I talk to don't even have boundaries in their vocabulary, like they've never asked or been asked, never had that conversation. Everyone should know this and have plenty of practice by now. And always keep practicing.

  • BashfulLonerBashfulLoner

    I suppose it's a discussion for understanding for those who don't. Personally, i hope to never put myself in a position someone needs to say stop to me or i need to say stop. I kind of feel like in most cases when it gets to stop things have gone awry. I also hope to never need to say no in a position where safety, liberty or well being is concerned. So, i do get it, but hopefully all my moves in the world keep me from experiencing either. Stop tells me "go the other way, you've chosen the wrong path", maybe means "we should discuss this further to get a clear understanding of each others goals; and no means "hell no" and there will need to be an invitation for anything going forward. Yes also means, "you better confirm and confirm again." If i say the words i expect the same. In some instances that might seem to slow whatever the goal is but it's much better than the alternative and misunderstanding.

    Not meaning to dismiss the importance of the understanding of the OP, I'm just expressing how i try and stay far ahead of any confusion. Hopefully i never enter in to a situation where the understanding isn't already established.

  • SunsetSnugglesSunsetSnuggles

    Oh yes. "No" is typically a response to a question. "Stop" is a reaction to an action. If you are never asked for consent, you can't say Yes or No, and you're left with Stop, fight or flight, or the freeze response.

    Unfortunately, in my only negative cuddle experience where platonic boundaries were crossed, I was so stunned and taken aback that I went into the freeze response.

    The victim-blaming surrounding this has been incredibly disheartening, with those in the community having reactions ranging from unfriending me without ever asking me about my experience, to being called "spineless" for not being able to say Stop in the moment.

    I have been working on my ability to stay present and work hard to verbally communicate when triggered, and have been using group and individual cuddles to practice saying "No", "That's enough", "Can we switch to this instead", etc. etc.

    It's definitely been a learning experience, very enlightening to see how people react when you are vulnerable, and a chance to improve myself. We are all on a journey.

    I'm grateful to those who believed me, those who shared that they had been taken advantage of by the same person, and those who have given me advice and support to work on my triggers and communication, and protect myself in the future.

    ~ Sunset Snuggles

    🦄 Enthusiast 🏞 Travel Fiend 🐘 Animal Lover

  • MarkBPhxMarkBPhx

    @sillysassy This is an important conversation. Thank you for initiating this discussion.

  • sg89sg89

    have i felt the difference, no. do i understand the difference, yes. i can't vote because no option represents that but i do have total awareness on the difference between the two when it comes to consent.

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery

    @jplemmon why do you need someone to say no "nicely" in order for you to respect it? Because telling people that a blunt no makes them sound bitter or angry is exactly why so many are afraid to say no in the first place...so instead they hedge their words and dress them up so much until the no is no longer so clear and then they are blamed for not saying no. This mentality is why victims of assault get blamed no matter what they do.

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup
    edited February 17

    For what it’s worth, I’ve been told before to “stop asking. ” I guess overly asking for consent annoys people?

    @SunsetSnuggles Sounds rough, stories like these are why I like to regularly verbally check in

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited February 17

    @cuddlefaery Blunt vs nice is all in eye of beholder and some people have major boundary issues and for them only the bluntest of no's will work. Regardless no is no as you said it doesn't matter the tone or perceived niceness of it . And unfortunately there is a double standard that exists where as you know , women who use their voices and are direct and blunt are perceived as problematic for some men . It's just not "ladylike"

  • sunnysideupsunnysideup

    @pmvines There is also this culture floating around , unfortunately, where some guys believe/were taught that no doesn’t mean no in some contexts (ie, want to be seen as playing hard to get/etc), which necessitates the firm and abrupt nos, where there can be absolutely no confusion

  • jplemmonjplemmon
    edited February 17

    comment flagged and removed [Shake]

  • pmvinespmvines

    @sunnysideup yep, still have the Mad Men vibe in some places for sure .

  • Minestrone101Minestrone101

    2 year olds know the difference between good and bad touch. I think cuddlers should just have lasers pointed their way. If someone breaches a boundary , then they can get vaporized. Does that go agst community standards?

    Maybe the real issue is how to spot the wolf in sheep's clothing.

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery
    edited February 17

    @jplemmon there's different forms of consent, one of which is "blanket consent" such that once trust and basic consent have been established then consent for every single step does not have to be obtained - but it is with the understanding that it has been discussed and that it can be revoked at any time. The problem is that most men and many women do not discuss the topic of consent and boundaries in depth with the people they engage with. However, when you go with the assumption that everything is ok in the absence of a no, then you are always going to end up overstepping boundaries because you don't know where they actually are. It is much easier and less harmful to simply use our words to communicate as we go, or to establish a baseline policy that everyone involved is comfortable with, so that everyone is on the same page.

    And re: the going back into a zipped up plastic bubble - EVERYONE has trauma. Life causes trauma. Not everyone is actively dealing with it every day. But since trauma is part of the human experience, is it really that hard to have a bit of empathy for people who struggle? Are people with touch trauma less entitled to cuddles simply because they survived assault? Reacclimating to touch is part of the healing process, and learning to enforce and communicate healthy boundaries is also a very big part of allowing survivors to regain their agency and ability to enjoy touch and emotional intimacy again. That you would suggest further punishing people who have been victimized says a whole lot about your character and level of empathy, any reviews aside. But I appreciate that you show you are not a safe person here, so hopefully others can make their own informed decisions about whether or not to interact with you. Most simply avoid voicing their negative views of victims, making it harder for us to properly vet for our safety.

  • jplemmonjplemmon
    edited February 17

    But I appreciate that you show you are not a safe person here, so hopefully others can make their own informed decisions about whether or not to interact with you.

    Sure, I'll let all my regulars know.

    Don't worry, I'm sure sorry about my actions tonight.

  • AchterbahnAchterbahn

    A few years ago, I was having a conversation about consent with a massage therapist friend of mine. It started as a conversation about consent in the context of massage, but went on to be more about our personal lives. We were discussing about how hard it can be to ask for things we want. I said to him, "Is it because you are afraid of being rejected?" and he said "No, I'm afraid of getting a 'yes' that isn't 100% genuine." It was an enlightening conversation for me because I realized that I had the same fears.

    Because of that, I have absolutely no problem with a blunt "no". If someone is willing to give me a blunt no, I'm much more confident that any "yes" they give is completely genuine.

    Back to the original question: While a "stop" can be a sign that communication broke down somewhere, it can also just mean that someone has changed their mind or realized that something they had already consented to isn't meeting their needs like they expected. In these cases, the most important thing is that the person knows that saying stop is absolutely OK and will be respected.

  • pmvinespmvines
    edited February 17

    Considering that there are folks on here who try to convince pros to date them and be their FWB and even send pics and vids that they know they shouldn't be sending , I would wager that for some there cannot be enough emphasis on the importance of a resounding no regardless of how blunt it might be . We don't know a person's history and what they've had to deal with regarding their boundaries and what they've had to go through to enforce and protect those boundaries . So a blanket firm and blunt no seems reasonable to me.

  • RedFox16RedFox16
    edited February 18

    Oh yikes! FYI, this is absolutely NOT the thread where it's appropriate to disagree with OP (b/c of the topic, obviously. But also cuz OP is super smart 🤓)!! 🤔

    Yes, everyone is free to their own opinion. But if a person's opinion on this particular topic is that someone saying no to their advances (assumedly, sexual in nature), is a bad thing....then what does that mean? Or what are others to believe about the type of person they are if that is a bad thing to them? ("That" being a person simply saying the word "no" because they want to retain bodily autonomy and control who touches them and how.)

    And if a person on CC is purposely choosing cuddlers who won't say no, then what does that mean? Does that mean they are a person who is specifically searching out those who won't say no....or those who will say no in a way that is not firm, so they can attempt to persuade them to change their mind?

    I think, for a any human with that type of personal opinion about consent....that is definitely creeping into the definition of predatory behavior. No? I mean, if you think about it....🤔

    And what would a person.... who doesn't like being told "no"....have to be worried about on a cuddle site anyways? Consent is a huge part of cuddle therapy. Cuz it wouldn't be therapeutic if cuddles were coerced or forced, after all....right? Unless there's other things occurring during a session that a cuddler says "no" to???

    These are just some questions I had while reading this thread 🤔🤨

  • Minestrone101Minestrone101

    @RedFox16 👏👏👏

    @SunsetSnuggles ❤️💜❤️

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee
    edited February 19

    I’m more partial to screaming “what the FUCK are you doing” whenever possible and then pulling out a taser, but sure, “no” and “stop” are fine.

    I see no real difference between the two when it comes to initiating conversation, and the difference the video creator made really only points to a difference in how the other party regards you. One where they asked your permission, and one where they didn’t care about your permission. I’m not afraid to say “no” or “stop”, so both feel equally fine to me.

    I’m grateful that none of the men in my personal or romantic life have put me in any position where I have to say “stop”. They ask… or they are good at reading non verbal cues. I only have to be this aggressive because of other men out in the world bothering me all the damn time. Thank goodness that even my worst boyfriends still always respected my consent. I’m a lucky one. I have unfortunately had friends whose boyfriends assaulted them.

    Can’t wait til I’m 50 and become invisible to men.

  • lonelytauroslonelytauros

  • TxTomTxTom

    Can’t wait til I’m 50 and become invisible to men.

    50 will arrive much faster than you expect. No need to be impatient about it. Enjoy your time.

  • starrynitecudsstarrynitecuds

    @bobadevotee not sure who fed you that line of crap because it's not true.

  • bobadevoteebobadevotee

    @starrynitecuds lot of older women I’ve spoken to who say they love that they’re invisible to men now.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    GOODNESS!!!! So much is happening and so much that I want to respond to. I am still reading... Its just going to take a minute...

    I love it. I LOVE all of it... So much goodness in all of the info presented. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

    😊

    Oh wait... I said that!! In another thread.

    I have so much that I'm thinking about. SOON!!

  • musicfortruth17musicfortruth17

    Well as a matter of fact I don’t just say no, I says HELL NO!!! I’ve had more than my share asking someone to stop it ain’t enough

Sign In or Register to comment.