The problem with Karma



  • @respectful, I like that better. Communication and experience :-) I would add something related to safety, like respectful or something, since it would be a good way to flag people who might need to be reviewed, without the person having to consciously think "I need to report this person" which I imagine people don't like to do. Note underneath that the response is not published. Airbnb also has a question that is not published and only for Airbnb to see. I think that is good. People are more likely to be honest and it's an important thing to try hard to gather accurate information about.

  • edited February 2018

    @ubergigglefritz Maybe:

    (But I'm still not sure about having "exceptional" ...)

  • Looks good, straightforward, and simple :-)

    Another thing Airbnb does is open up a comment box if anything less than perfect is given. It's good, because there's nothing more frustrating than being rated not great and having no idea why or how you could improve ;-)

  • edited February 2018

    @ubergigglefritz For this site, the positive comments can be some of the most helpful ones I think (they're amazing to read through) -- so it would be good to always have comments even if the rating it perfect I think.

    Edit: But maybe a separate comment for each category is a good idea (as an explanation of "why" for each one)?

  • Right. Sorry. Didn't explain well. They're boxes specific to that category that just go to the individual, to help them improve. It encourages having a reason and explaining that reason, instead of just rating low "because". Of course you can always provide private feedback. It can just be frustrating to not know what you did wrong. There is always still the public comment box where you write your review, no matter how you rated, which displays in your karma list.

    Also, on Airbnb you only see an average of the categories, only overall rating is displayed with the reviews individually. But that could be fine either way. I think it just keeps the list simpler to view.

    Anyway, I'm just sharing my experience on a different platform, and the associated frustrations. So hopefully cc doesn't develop the same problems and user grievances. Obviously they aren't exactly the same :-)

  • I prefer true and false or multiple choice

  • edited March 2018

    This was mentioned today in another thread and so for clarity I just want to summarise how the hide & lock-in feature will likely work and confirm that it is now part of the roadmap.

    Summary of Karma feature after proposed changes:

    • Karma ability is unlocked as usual after messages have been exchanged.
    • The first person who submits Karma triggers a 5 day countdown.
    • The submitted Karma is not revealed to the recipient during this period.
    • If the recipient submits Karma in response, both submissions are revealed immediately. Otherwise, after 5 days the opportunity for the recipient to post Karma is lost and the initial submission is revealed.
    • You can only edit your Karma before reveal.
    • You can delete your Karma at anytime.
    • Replies to karma are allowed without restriction.
  • I like it

  • @Mark, please don't have the start marked by someone posting karma (should be after an official cuddle). Someone could do that before the people have even met, either knowingly or unknowingly, starting the countdown before the other person has had the chance to even cuddle the person and hold an opinion. I even had someone post karma on me after we met, but hadn't cuddled yet. I wouldn't want to post a karma on them until I actually knew how he cuddled.

    Can people reply to karma they posted, thus updating their karma? Or how are you keeping that ability? It's a tough challenge to keep the ability to update without allowing retaliation, since future experience may become bad. You should be able to post a karma every time a cuddle session occurs, similar to Airbnb. If someone wasn't happy (expressed in a review, triggering a desire to retaliate), another session shouldn't even occur, but if everything was good, and a future session was bad, the person needs to be able to post a new poor review.

  • edited March 2018

    Someone could do that before the people have even met, either knowingly or unknowingly, starting the countdown before the other person has had the chance to even cuddle the person and hold an opinion.

    That issue already exists and I'm not sure it's practical to solve. There isn't really a way to confirm when two people have physically met so we just give the ability to post Karma after a certain number of messages have exchanged.

    We already remove Karma that is reported to have been posted before a meet-up. That would still apply with this updated Karma system. So even if 5 days have past, the recipient could still post if the initial Karma was removed.

  • That issue may already exist, but it's not really a huge issue to me because it doesn't prevent the other person from waiting. It's good to clarify that someone can report it, maintaining their ability to wait. A karma being posted absolutely needs to trigger an indication to the user that their five day window has begun. That is really non-negotiable in my opinion.

  • edited March 2018

    I agree, so to confirm:

    • Email is sent to the recipient of Karma to make sure they are aware they have a limited time to respond with their own Karma.
    • If a user or moderator decides to remove Karma, and no Karma exists from the other side, the 5-day restriction will be cleared.

    In regards to your other point, for now I don't plan to allow for multiple reviews for the same user. If a seemingly good cuddler eventually proves themselves undeserving of the initial Karma, the poster can remove it. If it's a case of pushing boundaries then they should report the user to be banned.

  • OK, that's where we would disagree then. A removed karma does not a bad one make, ha. If I have one cuddle session where the guy is fine, we both review positively, and then the next session I'm not happy with his behavior, the only follow-up options are to remove the karma and/or report him to be banned? I don't encourage multiple reviews from the same person on Airbnb, but if someone comes and has a great time, but then the next time I have cat poop everywhere, they should be able to post a second review reporting that, ha. O:-)

  • edited March 2018

    It just introduces the retaliation issue back again. You can't know when the second meeting happens and therefore a follow-up review can simply be a form of retaliation once the recipient discovers they were given a bad review.

    So while I agree it's not ideal, I think it's the right balance for now.

  • Someone posts a retaliating review. I report that we never met again. You look at our messages. No confirmation of second meeting. Karma deleted... ;-)

  • edited March 2018

    Fair point. Only issue there is after an initial meeting between regular members, it is common for further communication to continue off-site. That would mean an absence of the potential evidence you refer to.

    You could have two different Karma systems (enthusiasts and professionals) but I'd rather find something that works for both even if that means you don't get it perfect for either.

  • Isn't the normal position that that's the fault of the user? It's stated clearly that all appointments should be confirmed there ;-)

  • edited March 2018

    Yes, for pro interactions. That's why I mentioned two Karma systems being a possible direction but I'm not a fan of it.

    By the way, this topic is posted in the pro forum but my understanding is this discussion is ultimately about the Karma system in general. That's the way I'm approaching it anyway.

  • I noticed a brand new pro gave her first client 4 Stars. I find this interesting because all you ever really see is 5 Star or 1 Star karma. 4 Star is actually pretty good but I wonder if he will will be offended and no longer patron that pro?

  • edited March 2018

    Sadly the member I am referring to in my comment above deleted his profile after the 4 Star comment

  • Could have been another reason... Hard to know. Were the words of the karma at least good?

  • Yes the comments were good

  • [Deleted User]chococuddles (deleted user)

    Hello Karma, my old friend. I've come to fight with you again.
    Because a vision softly muddling, Left its seeds while I was cuddling...

    Seriously tho, I'm glad there's a discussion on this and hope there will be a system that everyone approves and enjoys.

  • LOL @chococuddles, I can hear Simon & Garfunkel groaning from here!

    The secret/hidden karma and the five day window thing that Mark mentioned seem kind of cloak & dagger to me. Too stressful! I may have to stick with the dozen or so cuddlers I already know and stop pursuing new cuddle buddies (and karma) at all. ;-)

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