The problem with Karma



  • edited January 2018

    One way to deal with the retaliation issue is to display the complete karma history between two people, and never delete past comments/ratings -- so it will be clearer if someone is just reacting to what the other person wrote.

    And I think that there are three potential ratings: 1 star (negative), 5 star (positive) and"I wish I could give more than 5 stars" (amazing). I don't like giving less than 5 stars to people because I don't want to be discouraging, but I would be OK distinguishing "great" from "my best cuddle ever".

    Maybe presented as: thumb down, thumb up, shining star?

    Then you need a way to summarise a person's rating. Assign thumbs down = 0, up = 4, star = 5, and find the average.

    Less than 2: thumb down
    Less than 3: thumb sideways (indicating that the person has a mixture)
    Less than 4.5: thumb up
    4.5 to 5: shining star (meaning, the majority of the person's ratings are shining stars)

    Or alternatively, just display every single rating the person has had in a row. It's easy to read a row of "mostly thumbs up, two stars and a single thumbs down".

  • I feel like we are talking about making this more complicated than it needs to be...

  • edited January 2018

    At my work, they use smileys

    1 - =)
    2 - :)
    3 - :/
    4 - :'(
    5 - :s


  • edited January 2018

    Taking into account that the rating system, while a good tool, may not be used and as some have said viewed as intended.. maybe expanding it would be an answer. I'll try to elaborate on my idea so stick with me here.

    For clients/non-Pros and Pros:
    There would be a positive rating percentage view-able on their profile much like eBay where you could see a percentage based off how many reviews have been left as a thumbs up/down. This could still be part of the 5 star system, maybe having 1/4 star ratings increments, decimals, or such. People could click on the number of reviews to see comments with reviewers having the option for their comments to be shown with their name or as anonymous (the person being reviewed and admins would still be able to see all reviews). Other clients/non-Pros would be able to get a general sense based off this percentage rating and would keep with keeping a simple look for new comers to easily pick up on.

    The 2nd part of the change would come from the review process. Pros and clients would only be able to leave reviews after both acknowledge something on the site or a link by email that a session had taken place; I would even suggest it being done at the start of the session when the Pro is collecting the money. Once that acknowledgement on the site is done, by a button on the site or a link by email clicked as the acknowledgement, then both sides would be able to leave Karma any time after then.
    On the client/non-Pro side of leaving Karma for the Pro:
    They would be given the option for 3 sections for leaving a review.
    1. Giving a thumbs up/down to affect the percentage accordingly
    2. Like Lyft/Uber after being dropped off when reviewing your driver, you would be presented with keywords they could select (i.e. Friendly, Caring, Great Conversation, Great With Newbies, etc..) with a place input their own to quickly describe the session. These would then be displayed at the top of the comments page with the thumbs up/down percentage, only ones that have ever been picked/input for that person.. maybe have the most common ones picked being larger.
    3. Be presented with an optional comment text box to leave a more elaborate Karma message for further details and a checkbox to leave that comment anonymously to the public while the person leaving the comment, the person being reviewed, and admins could see who left it

    On the Pro side of leaving Karma for their clients/non-Pros:
    They would have all 3 of the same features as stated above, but with an additional optional, one that only Pros and admins could see.. a checkbox of if the Pro would book another/future session with the client. This way, it's a discreet way that while the Pro may have left a good, fair, and honest review of the client/non-Pro, other Pros would be able to see if they would do repeat sessions with them and if curious about more information could reach out to the Pro by message to ask about it. Once made available, the Pro would have access to change their choice on this at any time so if later down the road things turn sideways in person, in messages, or actions then they wouldn't need to do another session to be able to change their answer.

    As for non-Pros having cuddle sessions with each other, there would need to be a way for non-Pros to schedule cuddle sessions with one another the way they would if it was going to be with a Pro so they too could have access to some acknowledgement button or email link to open access to leaving Karma.

    Once Karma has been submitted, my idea is that it would stay in a suspended state and only if both sides submit Karma would they show up at the same time and neither could be edited (except by possibly an admin and only on a case-by-case basis). This would prevent one leaving good Karma, the other leaving not so good Karma, both showing up only for the person who left the good review to go back to change theirs to something negative. Make it more permanent to hold more weight.
    Additionally, for each additional cuddle session, I'd say being given the ability to leave multiple reviews or an addendum to an original would be a good option to show not only do they have reviews, but that it's not a 1-time-only thing, that people (Pros and non-Pros) go back to the same person for a reason.

    If it sounds too much, too complex, then no worries, but I think keeping it simple looking while giving more info would lead to it being used more, mean more to those viewing your profile page, and mean more to anyone receiving messages from you or trying to schedule time. Just my thoughts.

  • edited February 2018

    Once Karma has been submitted, my idea is that it would stay in a suspended state and only if both sides submit Karma would they show up at the same time and neither could be edited (except by possibly an admin and only on a case-by-case basis). This would prevent one leaving good Karma, the other leaving not so good Karma, both showing up only for the person who left the good review to go back to change theirs to something negative. Make it more permanent to hold more weight.

    @reurbo The above is quite similar to my idea of a hide & reveal lock-in period. So with yours, if only one side posts Karma, I assume it still reveals but after a time period expires?

    I think this method would work well for professional cuddling but social accounts might need a different solution as meet-ups are less likely to occur soon after exchanging messages. It could be days, weeks or months.

    EDIT: Actually, I'm being silly. You can start the countdown when the first review is submitted. And if the other person doesn't leave a review within a few days, they lose out permanently. Otherwise if both leave a review then you can reveal both reviews before timeout. I think replies should still be allowed after karma is revealed though.

    @Morpheus Oh yeah, just re-read. Fair enough.

  • One other thing I want to mention, I don’t think blocking a member should be a tool used to avoid bad karma. Members should be able to review another member even if the member has blocked them.

  • edited February 2018

    @mark I like that idea too! Give both sides a chance to leave Karma, keep them pending until both have had a chance to do so, but after a window of something like 2-3 weeks so in case one or the other are extremely busy they don't feel rushed to do it, then close the option to leave Karma for that session and if either person has left Karma it would get posted.

    EDIT: @Morpheus I agree. Blocking a person that had setup for a cuddle session and then either canceled or things went bad shouldn't protect the person at fault from receiving rightfully deserved negative Karma.

  • edited February 2018

    Yeah, the blocking issue is already on my list, though not high priority.

  • [Deleted User]masterofcuddle (deleted user)

    I actually had that happen today. I had a cuddle session set and at the last minute she canceled on me. I wasn't at all rude just said I was extremely disappointed and she immediately blocked me.

  • @Masterofcuddle I remember blocking a pro who actually left me good karma and a few days later, the karma she left me was gone. She was blocked however so I would assume she asked an admin to remove it and they did it. If that’s the case, you should be able to ask an admin to leave your karma to the pro who blocked you.

  • edited February 2018

    Having the right to delete Karma is an intended part of the system (for now at least). The fact blocking can get in the way of that is a problem. So I do think it's reasonable for someone to ask for Karma to be removed in that situation. That should apply whether you are a client or a pro.

  • edited February 2018

    Some stats about star ratings ... as of a few days ago:

    268 female pros (who cuddle men) have karma.

    Out of the 877 ratings, 858 are five star, 14 are one star and just 5 (less than 1%) are two, three or four stars.

    Most (9 out of 14) one star ratings are due to cancelling at the last minute or not turning up at all. The others are either about bad communication (not sure if they actually cuddled) or negative experiences, which are sometimes just clients pushing the boundaries.

    So to me the categories are:

    -- great cuddle (comments can distinguish "best cuddler ever" from "good")
    -- cancelled without warning / following up
    -- bad experience

  • edited February 2018

    @Mark, What if you made three or so categories using @Respectful's comprehensive list for rating using the current 5 star system.
    For example:

    Ease of booking/communication (3)
    Cuddler's personality, appearance (5)
    Session: conversation, unique experience (3)
    Would cuddle again (2)

    Then if they want to give additional feedback, they can. But it won't be as necessary. It also gives a chance to give positive feedback and complaints all in one place without hurting feelings.

    If I have a great session with a new client, and we had good communication for booking (5), he was nice and came showered (5) but something went wrong during the session, pushing boundaries or something else (1), would cuddle again (1).

    I think it would give people a better idea of how to improve (if they want to) on both ends. If someone had a great session with me, and give me 5 stars, but thought I was being short when it came to booking and conversation - I would know by looking at my karma that my client was unhappy there. And I can work on that.

    Same applies to my clients, if they are perfect all throughout, and then the last 10 minutes of the session is getting super touchy, I would want him to know that (even tho I remind clients of the rules before and during sessions) and I am not punishing him with a 1 star or remaining silent and allowing the next cuddler find out the hard way. .

    Just my midnight thoughts.

  • @AlexBabyBoo23. I think that's a great idea!

  • @Mark, I currently do Airbnb, and you are right, this is a continual problem there as well. There are plenty of complaints about it in the host forums, suggestions for improvement, etc, and Airbnb has made no changes. A big problem there (which you don't do, so please don't) is that we are effectively punished for anything less than five stars. Anything less than perfect is NOT ok. @Morpheus also said the same at his work. This is bad because typically people don't like to give "perfect" all the time, and it should not be expected to always get perfect. The fact that people here ARE giving perfect all the time, means that there is definitely something very wrong with your system.

    I personally don't like the thumbs up or down system, as it would almost intensify the current problem. I don't think barely anyone would post a review with a thumbs down. They would more likely just put a thumbs up and then post details in the comment. I don't think it would solve the issue.

    I do like the idea of a window of opportunity to post the review (and you can't see anything until both have been posted or the window has passed). This is the way Airbnb does it. There needs to be a way to verify an interaction however, to trigger the start of the window. And, of course, people need to be able to post another review (or comment on a previous review, which would be even better, since it would clump all your comments together) when they have another interaction. This solves your concern (and everyone's) to be able to effectively edit a previously positive review to be negative.

    I don't like the idea of anonymous karma. I like being able to contact people directly to ask any questions I might have, after seeing their karma. The protection needs to be in the process and not anonymity, in my opinion. On Airbnb, I'll sometimes message the person directly asking for more details as to what I could do better (though no one seems to ever want to explain their poor rating, lol).

    @Alternis solution is kind of interesting. The client basically earns the right to review a pro by being respectful. If they are inconsiderate and break rules or are otherwise unpleasant to work with, they don't have the opportunity to pass on that attitude onto the pro's karma. As a pro, my main concern with karma is safety related, and it is a top concern. This addresses that by eliminating potential retaliation for posting a poor review on someone who did not make the other person feel safe.

    @pmvines comment I guess makes sense to some people. I take safety (and other people's safety) seriously though and would never post a positive review for someone who made me feel unsafe, just to get karma back... Would this really be a concern? :-/ But @Scarlette comments are interesting also. I'm learning a lot about the psychology behind karma here being different than somewhere else, ha. Maybe the difference here is that, as a pro, I really only care about knowing whether this person has been respectful of other people in the past or not. Beyond that, I can tell myself, from conversation with the person directly, to decide whether I want to book a session with them or not. It sounds like @Morpheus is on the same page as me, maybe.

    As a client, I imagine the main concern is whether the person is worth their money or not. I feel like this is a lot more similar to any standard review of anything else, and people just need to be honest (eliminating retaliation possibilities would help encourage this). As a newbie (priced accordingly), I do hope that people will be understanding and provide constructive criticism without being harsh, for as long as they feel respected and that I was overall a good and kind person to cuddle with =) I hope that's a reasonable expectation :-/

    @AlexBabyBoo23 idea, I don't like the idea of being rated on my personality or appearance. Everyone has their own taste, and you should be able to tell whether you like what I offer in that regard by my picture and/or our conversation beforehand. Please change it to "cleanliness" or something of the like. Please don't rate me on my looks or my personality, lol.

    Sorry that was so long =)

  • edited February 2018

    Thanks for your perspective. I had no idea AirBnB do the the timed window method. That will give me some additional confidence if we go in that direction.

  • @Mark, Yes, I think it's two weeks after the reservation. But honestly, often times it feels too long. Once you get that long after, it can be easy to forget the details of the guest. Best to do right after.

  • I had a session today and we left karma for each other within an hour after we were done.

  • @ubergigglefritz, I wasn't suggesting those areas specifically - but just the idea of having several categories to rate.

    Like online ordering you have for example:
    -communication with the seller
    -items delivered were what you ordered
    -package was not damaged.


    Someone, NOT me, would need to put a list of items together. Perhaps is something @Mark and @Respectful would come up with and run it by a few of us via a poll or something.

  • @Mark Is @AlexBabyBoo23's suggestion a possibility (having several categories to rate)?

  • Yeah, it's definitely something that can be considered.

  • Just be very careful about what categories you choose. For example, on Airbnb, the location category annoys many hosts. It is completely subjective so doesn't really mean anything to potential guests, and low scores are incredibly annoying to hosts. Any category should really only mean one thing in order for the ratings to mean anything to anyone.

    Personally, as a pro, the only question I really care about is whether the person writing the review felt safe or not, score 1(no)-5(yes).

    In rating pros, I just hope not to be rated on anything that's entirely subjective, because I know how frustrating the rating system is on Airbnb (and I'm incredibly burned out with that system).

    In my opinion, you want to protect and inform people without frustrating everyone. That's a tough balance to find. I think the first step, without over complicating everything initially, is to trigger the window to review once an in-person event has occurred, and then hide reviews until both have submitted or the window closes. Just do that and things will really improve. I think we're trying to make it perfect right away (nearly impossible) instead of just focusing on the first step.

  • I think if there were a safety question, any rating of 1 or 2 should not be displayed for anyone to see. It should trigger a review for possible removal of the user. 3-4 could be seen as an indicator for improvement needed. But that's my opinion.

  • You guys are still just making it super complicated for Mark and he is never going to have the consistency to change it. I don't think that people should be able to edit reviews. Send it and done. If you hate the stars just get rid of them and do testimonials only.

  • edited February 2018

    @AlexBabyBoo23, @Mark I was going to post a poll, but I have my own thoughts/opinions that I don't want to impose too much ... so I'm a bit stuck on how to ask the question.

    This is how I picture it. Three different ratings, Communication, Environment and Experience:


    Includes people not showing up or cancelling at the last minute. For professionals, includes ease of booking.

    Ratings: bad, OK (communication issues), good.


    Whether the place is clean, the host paid attention to making it nice for the guest etc.

    Ratings: bad, OK (room for improvement), good, exceptional, n/a (when not hosting).


    Overall experience, including conversation, engagement and whether you would want to see them again / recommend them to others. Includes whether there was any boundary pushing behavior, and whether they felt safe.

    Ratings: bad, OK (client tested boundaries or pro was disengaged), good, exceptional.

    -- Potential problems --

    Given that almost no one leaves 2-4 stars at the moment (just 1 or 5), maybe an "OK" rating might rarely be used.

    There might be pressure to rate everyone as "exceptional". In reality people really do distinguish between "good" and "exceptional" in the karma comments, but if it becomes part of the rating system directly, then people might not be willing to just rate people as "good". Maybe it would need special wording for emphasis, like "beyond amazing".
    :) -- or a two-step process to make it not totally easy to rate someone as "exceptional" (e.g. after rating someone as "good" another option appears to change that to "exceptional").

    Maybe "exceptional" isn't actually needed ...

    Edit: Another way to rate the experience is to ask, "Was this cuddle in the top 1%, top 10%, top 50% or bottom 50% of all cuddles in history?" -- which roughly equates to exceptional, really good, OK and not so good. Could add "bottom 1%" for bad experiences too.

    Just brainstorming! I think it's helpful to think about the psychology of it though ...

  • @ubergigglefritz It's all subjective. Am I a good cuddler? Subjective Was I easy to schedule with? Subjective Did I have a good personality? Subjective Was my home soothing and comfortable? Subjective... I'm not sure you really want a rating method based solely on whether the pro felt safe. I can guarantee that I feel far more safe with clients than you do. What could be a 5 for me could be a 1 for you.

    Every single student I teach in my business gets a assessment form in which they rate their instructor. They are just basic questions. I like @AlexBabyBoo23's suggestion. Just a few quick categories and a place to leave comments.

    @AshleyCuddles is right. This is getting more and more complicated.

  • edited February 2018

    I'm pretty sure a hidden review period is something that will need to happen. Not yet sure about the value of categories but find the ideas interesting. I quite like the three categories by @respectful.

  • @respectful, You're still making it way too complicated.

    1: reduce risk of retaliation by controlling the entry and visibility of reviews

    No editing. Reviews are locked. If you have another session with someone, another window is open for another review.

    Simple. Keep everything else the same and reassess at a later date.

    I have experienced this complicated of a review system in my time in Airbnb. It's not as glorious as it seems, and there will still (always) be imperfections. Keep it simple.

  • edited February 2018

    @ubergigglefritz I get you about starting with locking reviews as a first step (and agree). Just thinking about the possibilities ...

    @Scarlette My background makes me want to explore things in detail, but I don't see those categories as complicated. On the interface it would look super simple. I don't think "environment" is that important actually (it could be seen as part of "experience"), so it might just look like:

    ... where "exceptional" only appears if you click on "great".

  • @Scarlette, yes, all subjective technically, but in whether it was met or not, not what it means. Anything that is something everyone is looking for something different, would not result in even remotely accurate results, and thus would not be helpful to anyone. "Personality" is a bad word, for example. "Friendly" is better. Even "conversation" varies based on if someone wants someone to talk or someone to be quiet, so that's not even a good rating category. This activity is completely variable based on what people are looking for and whether they are a good match or not. It's hard to drill down to all these details without just causing confusion. I still say to just keep it simple and fix the main problem first before deciding all this additional overhaul is necessary. But if you do categories, it has to be something where there is only one way to interpret it, only one way that is considered a success in this activity. Ex - communication through the booking process, maybe respectful. Subjective, but it is obvious what you are looking at and everyone wants the same thing out of those categories...

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