Do we tell them what they're doing wrong, or will that only cause us more harm?

CuddleSquid

So I saw a comment on a "red flags and green flags" forum discussion that I do seriously wonder about oftentimes:_ "I won't discuss red flags. I believe it teaches boundary pushers how to be more deceptive."_

So do we tell them or not? Whilst I want to educate those who suck at initial approaches/messaging for things like this (and about having better bios), I worry that it helps them be more deceptive if they actually follow through with my advice. Of course, most don't change a damn thing in their approach and repeatedly make the same frustrating, off-putting mistakes, even within the very same conversation. Heh.

I always think back on this time I told a guy (on okcupid) that his little nice guy syndrome nonsense spiel on his profile was a red flag. I asked him to QUESTION why he felt that way, and if he truly did blame women for being treated badly by men. He said no, and he removed that part of of his profile. I agreed to meet after talking, and we cuddled. He was pretty nice yet DEFINITELY still had that nice guy syndrome, which came out and made me uncomfortable and never want to see him again. I feel so bad because that red flag/mentality was still true and important for other women to see upfront to save them the trouble. (Also I missed a rare eclipse for that, as we fell asleep, and it so wasn't worth it.)

I have more and more explicit info on what/how to approach me on my profile bio (as well as having a ton of information they can start discussions with), and I'm still getting the "hey I wanna meet and cuddle soon" messages right off the bat with no other info and nothing on their profiles. Should I stop bothering to tell them what they're doing wrong?! It usually seems hopeless and pointless anyway, but I figured maybe just maybe they're teachable and not really that bad, just really bad at this.....MAYBE.

Thoughts?

MOD Edit: Removed profanity. Suggested edit is italicized. [SoulcuddlerZ]

respectful

@CuddleSquid Personally I think that manipulative / predatory / narcissistic / abusive people already know how to be that way, and are unlikely to read these forums to learn more. And I think it is important to educate people about safety too, so these things need to be talked about in general.

"Should I stop bothering to tell them what they're doing wrong?"

There is a category of people who are a little clueless about how this all works, but still mean well (which includes me when I first started!). It may or may not be a red flag if someone assumes you would want to cuddle straight away. But if the same person keeps pushing after you ask them not to, that is a huge red flag.

CuddleSquid

@respectful - Yeah, very good points. I do think there would still be a type that would indeed try to learn how to manipulate to get what they want, without already being a full blown/experienced predator though. Like, angry boys on the internet who become incels, you know? Heh.

And that is what I figured, but I still worry about it. It does become pretty obvious when they keep doing the same things with little to no change in their approach. Am I allowed to share screenshots of messages? Cause, oy vey. Mind boggling, the total disregard for my words and feelings, like I'm not even there in the equation. I don't get it.

respectful

@CuddleSquid "I do think there would still be a type that would indeed try to learn how to manipulate to get what they want"

Maybe. I just think safety is such a big issue that it seems important to educate people about what to look out for.

"Am I allowed to share screenshots of messages?"

If you think it would help, but erase any identifying information first. I think people here probably have a good idea of the type of thing it might be already though. So: would it lead to helpful discussion and/or educate people about keeping safe? If so, feel free.

laylanie

Agreed with @respectful. There are some who will always be toxic, however not everyone who does something bad like that do it directly from malice and is better to think that it most likely came from ignorance.

By not sharing, it's a disservice to those that may want to change. Of course, you don't have to feel like you must preach every day to get to people because thats falling to their level of "my way is right". More of the approach that "we are on different paths, and here is what I see on mine". Chances are, they will say their side too, and from there is there a possibility of the roads crossing? Maybe parallel? Or will the two roads diverge?

Tldr keep talking. Someone will listen.

CuddleSquid

@respectful - Absolutely, I do think it's worth discussing generally, just maybe not with those individuals that are doing those things, all the time.

Probably not worth sharing, though I did share it with friends of mine. And they're like, yeah, noooooo, big ol' red flags, hopeless cause. :P I already knew the answer, it's just dumbfounding, and sadly, I have gotten to desperate-for-new-cuddlers points in my life, which leads to bad things. Gotta trust our guts.

CuddleSquid

@laylanie - yeah, all right. I can agree. I am more likely to want to help (and for less selfish reasons) if it's someone actively seeking advice/help on how to do/be better.

Yeah, good point, I know people are different; I am much better at communicating online and much prefer to do so first, and I know some people are the exact opposite of that. I acknowledge that, but if they are the ones approaching me for potential cuddles, I need them to at least attempt to do it in the way that makes me feel more safe and comfortable. If they're not willing or unable, then it's most likely just not gonna happen.

Esquire

@CuddleSquid

What is the nice guy syndrome u speak of?

CuddleSquid

@Esquire -
Here's a nice definition from urban dictionary:
"A condition where a guy feels he is entitled to dating a girl simply because he has been her friend and let her cry on her shoulder about the jerks. When she is not attracted to him, he chooses to blame it on the fact that he has been a "nice guy" and she only wants to date jerks. Really, not the mentality of a guy who is actually nice, because one should not be kind in the hopes of getting a girl and simply be kind for the sake of being kind. Any guy who tries to guilt you into dating him simply because you are friends has the mental affliction known as nice guy syndrome."

Also related, the bullshit concept of "friendzoning."

What happened with that one particular guy was my clothing rode up while he was petting me, and when I asked him to pull it back down and only touch over clothing he took on the attitude of, 'you should be grateful because I could do much worse to you; I'm a nice guy; wahhh wahh.' :P

He also really randomly found my youtube account wayyyy later and said he missed me....we met once. He's done this twice, awwkwarrrrrd. Ugh.

respectful

@CuddleSquid "I could do much worse to you" ?????

laylanie

@Esquire the long and short of it, it's a guy who heavily implies he is good and caring, but then feels entitled to earning love/sex because he's so nice, to the point that they are threatening to get this affection.

Honestly, it's a portion of guys that ruin it for truly nice guys because of their childish sense of ownership.

And before you ask, yes, there is such thing as nice girl for the same reasons, since I know how you are sometimes ;P

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nice Guy Syndrome&page=2

CuddleSquid

@respectful - haha, yes. It wasn't exactly what he said (was a long time ago, don't remember exactly), but that exact vibe, and I knew it was a mistake to point out his red flag on his profile even though I was honestly trying to make him re-think it and hoped he'd grown or would from making him think about it. Ugh.

MikeinDavis

Had to resort to Google for the term "nice guy syndrome". Sorry, I'm old.

From Wikipedia: "The terms "Nice Guy" and "nice guy syndrome" can be used to describe a man who views himself as a prototypical "nice guy," but whose "nice deeds" are deemed to be solely motivated by a desire to court women."

OK, I get that everyone wants to avoid sociopaths and Incel types, but pretty disappointed that this term exists. Have we really gone so far over the edge that we have weaponized and stigmatized the term Nice Guy?!? Ouch....

Terms like this are so divisive. For every true sociopath or incel exposed, it alienates a few decent guys in the process. Drone strikes against terrorists often just create more terrorists, due to the 90% collateral damage.

respectful

@CuddleSquid I think narcissistic / entitled people can potentially change, but it would take a fundamental shift in their thinking. They would need to face the reality of the kind of person they are, and how that affects other people; maybe like an alcoholic "hitting bottom". I suspect it's a very rare thing to happen, and is ultimately dependent on them being motivated to change. Destroying their relationships / family / career doesn't usually seem to be enough of a motivation, so it would take an awful lot I think. (Speaking from observation of a friend's marriage).

I agree that it isn't worth giving them tips on how to reduce their red flags and appear to be OK.

Edit: I guess there are different levels, and the person you mentioned may not have been as extreme as some. But I think educating them is very hard, and would probably be unsuccessful most of the time.

CuddleSquid

@MikeinDavis - The jaded, ill-intentioned, think they're entitled to get in your pants just because they pretend to be nice to you do so, nice-guy-syndromed ones pushed it over that edge, made that necessary. It's a really big problem. You really think actual nice guys being alienated is the real problem here? If you are genuinely nice and compassionate towards women and their experiences, it shouldn't matter.

Another part of the problem is, well the heteronormative patriarchal societal bullshit as a whole.... But specifically the fact that boys and girls are taught they can't just be friends (adults put weird, creepy thoughts/expectations at even very young children being friends when they're different genders, that needs to stop!), taught that boys are only allowed or supposed to want verbal and physical intimacy from one single (female) romantic/sexual partner/interest.... So they get mightily confused by women literally just being nice to them (not flirting), just being their friend (friendship is hella valid and important, between any/all genders), and so on... This way of thinking/teaching hurts men and women greatly. Boys/men feel all hurt and rejected (and often handle that rejection ridiculously poorly and lash out) because they think simply acting kind entitles them to sex or really anything from a woman. Women are losing friends constantly when men find out they are literally genuinely friends and feel "friendzoned," teaching girls/women that their friendship/entire being was not being valued whatsoever, just part of an end game. It's awful.

CuddleSquid

@laylanie - I've actually never heard of the same phenomenon happening with girls/women, heh. I mean, I'm sure it can happen with any gender, but perhaps not to the point of needing such terms. (I just figured out how to do an actual emoji )

BashfulLoner

Well for all who’ve comment I for one would appreciate being told what I’m doing wrong. Somethings i may learn and be willing to change while others i may not, however I’d appreciate the input.

I believe myself to be a decent guy, definitely not a nice guy, but good and honest so sometimes i feel i am viewed as manipulative. I don’t understand it because i attempt to be open as i can.

I say all that to say this, please share. Sometimes the offense is cultural or environmental and people have no idea.

laylanie

@CuddleSquid oh yeah! Girls are just as guilty of it. Regardless of gender, there is always potential across the platform for people to be sh*ty.

More common on the nice girl spectrum, nice girls will typically teardown another woman in attempts to make themselves look better for the chance of a relationship.

(e.g. "pfft, she's probably a slut anyways. You should totally be with me. I'm like the perfect wife " or "oh, you're not into me? Well fine! I was just trying to throw you a bone! You weren't on my level anyways! You should have said yes when you had the chance!")

@laylanie: I've seen that, but didn't have a term for it! "Nice Girl syndrome," huh? Cool, new vocabulary.

CuddleSquid

@respectful -

Yes, to change, it requires that shift with a lot of effort and help/therapy. It's hard when they literally get off on abusing people. I feel I might need to be more open to the idea of people actually truly growing and changing out of learned/transferred abusive behaviours, but it feels particularly unlikely when it's a long-time, horrifically successful, repeatedly narcissistic abuser. Of course, they have to WANT to change, like you said. They have to actually feel bad about the harm they cause other people. Some do, some don't. It depends.

It definitely wasn't my intention to make their red flag incognito, I genuinely wanted to spark a change in his problematic thinking.

It's really hard to tell if people are simply just telling you what you want to hear, so they can get what they want. While educating people is important, it's ultimately up to them to prove themselves to be trustworthy, and just because someone says or even shows they've grown for the better, doesn't entitle them to any more of your time, or anything.

Along the lines of worrying people are just telling me what I want to hear, I always appreciate when people talk about specifics on my profile when it comes to compatibility, instead of a blanket statement, and actually discussing things further.

CuddleSquid

@laylanie - Maybe it has to do with the fact that women tend to share screenshots of these horrors publicly and talk about our shared experiences, whilst men perhaps do not do that so much? I always hate to see women tear each other down. I wish we weren't taught to be in competition with each other!

laylanie

@CuddleSquid see I'm in the opposite. I thing competition is great in women. I feel (heavy emphasis on feel) that the gearing of competitiveness in women is gearded to heavily on finding a spouse which is why its so common for women to quickly tear down another woman. This makes the competition for attention smaller for this woman to get a spouse.
Competition in the work places is where we need it. Instead of using dirty tactics to win, we all, male/female/asexual/what-have-you, should earn our crowns and not win it because of bringing your fellow human down.

Stepping off my soapbox now.

CuddleSquid

@BashfulLoner -

Your username looked familiar. I looked back and see you sent me a message a few months ago. It wasn't terrible, though perhaps slightly off putting when you mentioned a specific date off the bat. You did, however, use terms that were less presumptuous, which I appreciate: "But i am in the area on the 28 th and would be interested in discussing a possible cuddle with you. If we could meet and_ discuss_ that day it would be great, or we could chat and talk and see if we could even set up a cuddle if we are comfortable with each other that’s great too."

I can't really remember what I was thinking at the time. Honestly it might have been more about your age. It is important to pay attention to "preferred ages," as it can be seen as disrespectful to disregard that (though less so, to me personally, if it's barely outside of the listed range.) Most men don't seem to care or pay attention and message people when they're much older than the preferred age range. Maybe you just have very few options or are particularly interested in someone from their profile, but you mayyyyy have a better chance if you address the age difference right away and apologize if it makes the person uncomfortable (and just leave them alone if it does.)

CuddleSquid

laylanie - Hrrm... heavy disagree. Competitiveness between women for work stuff is also screwing women over as a whole too...we all need to help make more space for each other. Hmmmm.

laylanie

Again it's about not being toxic with competitive. I should be the best candidate for the job because I'm the best at what I do and I fight for it. No cause I threw someone under the bus to get the position.
I think competitive, much like nice guy/girl, evolved to have a negative connotation because individuals who are clearly sh*ty use the terms and the association just starts to develop.

CuddleSquid

@laylanie - We were literally talking about women tearing each other down though, and toxic competitiveness, particularly when it comes to relationships, from the whole nice girl syndrome thing.

Humans are competitive.

The only way to “work around” that is to change the focus of competition, and make the new rewards more attractive than the old rewards for the older types of competition.

Which is pretty hard to do, as Maslow has explained.

BashfulLoner

@CuddleSquid thank you for the input. I agree. I also felt conscious when i typed it. But i learned i need to consider others age preference because i never ever even looked. I just assumed i fit in everyone’s range because I’m awesome! (In my 6 yo nieces voice)

laylanie

@CharlesTwisted exactly!

TheFunCartel

Nice guy syndrome? Nice girl syndrome? Seems like the more people change the world the more stereotypes proliferate.

Same s*** different day.

@FunCartel

Hmmm, not really.

The basics of the human condition haven’t varied much in millennia since sapiens sapiens evolved, as Maslow has explained.

But our culture, which is essentially the current social way to get the maximum number of those needs met at the minimum of risk and effort, is incredibly new.

Our “industrial culture” is about 125 years old, or about 5-6 concurrent generations.

The way I was raised to interact with women is NOTHING like the way my Great-grandfather was raised.

Honestly, the way I initially was raised to interact with women is already obsolete, and that is less than 50 years.

These new cultural values, and social cues, are a brand new language and dance.

Some segments of our population are digging into the older culture, but the clear majority are moving forward into the new values.

And, honestly, now is the best time to be a human being, ever. (With the caveat that we don’t destroy ourselves with too much power and not enough knowledge, of course.)

But, it is challenging, for sure.