Words

littermate

I'm interested to hear from everyone who wants to share...

This is particularly a question about gender conditioning and triggery words, so excuse any heteronormativity on my part. Everyone welcome to chime in from your experience.

Women, what words, when men use them, are triggery for you? And what words, when you've used them in relation to men, seem to evoke triggery responses from them? Babe? cute? girls? chicks?

Men, what words, when women use them, are triggery for you? And what words, when you've used them in relation to women, seem to evoke triggery responses from them? Dude? Dick? (I'm less familiar with this because we women tend to be ever so much more verbal about our triggeredness in this department, in my experience.)

Nbs - interested in anything and everything you have to say from your experience of this as well. I'm just more ignorant in here, ignorant enough to not be sure of what question I want to ask. Talk to me.

Please be civil. I realize I'm pointing our boat into a potential firing range.

UKGuy

As a man, I hate it when any woman says "All men ..." followed by some statement that is supposed to apply to all or most men. Also any comment like "That's typical of a man". I dislike stereotypes generally. All men (and women) are dfferent and I don't believe the entire population of either sex has anything in common.
As far as words go, I have never used terms like babe or chick to refer to women or dude or bro to refer to men.

pmvines

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geoff1000

How about "mansplaining", implying that it is a male-specific behaviour ?

geoff1000

The problem arises when a word is used as an insult so often, that it can no longer be used in its original sense, because it has become intrinsically insulting. There's nothing wrong with a British person being called a Brit, or an Australian being called an Aussie ; but Pakistani can't be shortened.

Race-related words are the strongest example of this, but gender ones can be too. That risks people being unable to use "terms of endearment" to their loved ones, even during times when that is very appropriate.

When we act as "free children" as described in Transactional Analysis ( i.e. enjoying ourselves in a carefree way ), it can be useful shorthand to describe ourselves with the terms "boy" or "girl" ; to indicate that we have regressed temporarily, and are not workers, parents etc. It can be just as bad to refer to ourselves according to our adult roles.

Sheena123

I don’t know if this counts but when certain people found out I don’t want children, they lose their minds. I’ve had some tell me that I’m making a mistake, women should have children. Some even had the nerve to touch my stomach and say this body is meant to give birth. Like, excuse me?

Also, I’ve had a lot of men say I need to wear make up more, I need to smile more, I need to stop being a prude when sexual topics come up, I need to wear more sexy things.

I had an ex husband that got upset when I had a job making more money than him. He truly believed men should make more than women and women should just be bare foot and pregnant cooking for the man.

Nicknames don’t bother me too much. I call people hun all the time. And others have called me sweetheart or cutie. That’s never got to me. Just don’t call me sexual names. That’s all.

I know I’ve also been bad towards men when I say certain things. Like I’ll say “man up” and similar things. It’s so toxic and I’m trying to stop that. Also, if my husband isn’t listening to me while I talk, I’ve caught myself saying “typical man” and rolling my eyes. Sorry men, you don’t deserve that 😕

The same as others have said: terms like mansplaining, "all men" (really any all x statements like that to be honest).

What immediately came to mind when I read the original post and what I was originally going to say was the phrase "man up", @Sheena123 none of us are truly healthy. We all have somewhat toxic behaviours whether that behaviour is toxic towards ourselves or others, so long as we're conciously aware of those behaviours and try to stop it as you are then I wouldn't stress too much about it. We're all a result of our upbringing and experiences after all, the only way to get out of it is to change and hope the world does the same around us. Also, sounds like the ex husband is an ex for good reason.

Sheena123

@Zundar you’re exactly right. My momma was wronged by two men and all of a sudden “all men” are dogs. I grew up with her telling me to be independent and not to rely on the man, which is an empowering lesson to teach women but at the same tine, she would say men are useless, men are pigs, men only want one thing. I think I definitely rubbed some of that off onto me but when I catch myself saying it, I get really upset. I want to do whatever I can to be the exact opposite of what my mom is like 😳

Mike403

@Sheena123 - Just like people who assume that all cops are out to kill unarmed people just because they saw a couple of them on the news who did it. That's just the way humans and animals are.

geoff1000

@Sheena123
Don't be too hard on yourself for "toxic" behaviour towards men.

In "Avengers ; Age of Ultron" Natasha Romanoff kisses Bruce Banner, then says to him, "I adore you, but I need the other guy" , then pushes him off a cliff, which makes him turn into The Hulk, so he can help to save the day.

Every so often, men need to "act to type", to be all that is regarded as stereotypical male, so they can achieve something that a "new man" cannot ; and sometimes that motivation is more effective from a woman. It might be pushing through the pain of physiotherapy, or a sporting challenge, or a real-life crisis ; but the trick is to do it only sparingly.

Having said that, women can be as tough as men. When Fanny is being left out of Robin Hood's plans in "Prince of Thieves", because she might get hurt, she retorts, "I've given birth to eight babies. Don't you talk to me about getting hurt". The only difference is, they don't have a gender stereotype they can be urged to follow.

geoff1000

@Sheena123
P.S. I've often urged women to wear less make up ; and while I agree that a smile makes a woman more attractive, the purpose is so that men will be motivated to give them something to smile about.

As a nonbinary person, I don't particularly care for any word (or set of words) that sticks me in a box with a whole bunch of stereotypes I don't like. I especially don't like it when the words come along with an assumption—spoken or unspoken—that I should change something about myself in order to either fit into the box better or to stand out.

I am what I am, geez louise! Why assume that I am something I'm not, or that I want to be different?

I don’t like when someone says I am to emotional. After asking me what’s wrong I was perfectly fine not sharing but judging me after asking me to share doesn’t make sense if you don’t care don’t ask.

geoff1000

@Sheena123
Given that the greatest risk to humanity, and indeed all life on Earth, is over-population ; those who choose to have fewer children are doing us all a favour. Having said that, I'd rather there be more of a balance ; rather than some couples having dozens, and other people having none.

Getting pregnant is a gamble, a stake risked in the hope of a reward. I'd be happy if people choose to be childless, because they don't want that reward ; but I'd be unhappy, if their experiences mean they aren't prepared to take that risk. Women don't join a dating agency, in the hope of finding a man who can look after their children at weekends.

In the same way, I don't mind if people don't want to walk through the woods at night ; unless it is because society and their experience has made them too scared to do so.

I don't mind people not wanting to go jogging ; but there are "bad" reasons that we ought to address, such as "because I'm black".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-54223871

Humans are one of only five species which have a menopause. This recognises in an evolutionary and biological way, that females contribute far more to the success of the gene pool, than simply numbers. Female turtles that abandon eggs on a beach every year, have no ongoing interest in them, or presumably any other turtle. Female orcas, however, give up having more children, to help raise their grandchildren ; and with large groups, where the members are less closely related, the "grandmother" role can be filled by those who have no children at all.

pmvines

@verona l think people ask cus its something they believe they are supposed to do ,but get uncomfortable when confronted with honesty and emotion. I dont think its always cus they dont care . I just think they are often times Ill equipped

geoff1000

@verona
@pmvines
The usual way we express our interest or concern about something, is to ask about it ; but we should try to find an alternative way, when the answer might be hurtful. If you knew that someone was trying to forget a real or emotional pain ; the worst idea, is ask them how that's going.

Maybe it's a male-specific issue ; we more often try to solve a person's problem, instead of providing palliative care to help them cope with it. We play to our strengths ; and when they aren't good enough for the situation, we get a bit lost.

geoff1000

@Sheena123
@littermate
Some generalisations are reasonable, because they tell us where to focus, the trick is to not be misled. If a deck of cards had two of the "7 of Diamonds", I would win twice as often by betting on that card turning up, than any other specific card ; but I'd still be wrong 96% of the time. A woman who has been hurt by a man, is likely to be more wary of men than of women ; but she shouldn't think most men are bad.

Another risk is "collective punishment", where we take out our anger on someone, because they share some of the characteristics, of the person we want to punish, but can't find. This was well-illustrated by Liam Neeson, confessing recently to seeking a lethal fight with someone of the same ethnic group as the person who raped his friend.

Diversity Training tells us that people are more similar, than they are different. Perhaps that's the wrong interpretation ; and we should instead say ( to pick up the point I think @DarrenWalker is making ) that within any group that we choose to pigeon-hole people into, they are more different, than they are similar. The only common characteristic of people on this site, is an interest in cuddling.

Farmers are very good at this. Most of us look at a flock of sheep, and just see sheep, and couldn't pick one out of an identity parade ; but farmers can recognise their differences, so can treat them appropriately. That skill isn't acquired overnight, we have to have met at least two sheep, before we can even start trying to understand the ways in which they are different to each other.

It can also take a very long time to unlearn our prejudices ; as we meet more people of a pigeon-hole group, who don't match the characteristics we assigned to it.

3 people on a train pass a flock of sheep, and conclude :
1. The sheep in this country are white.
2. Some of the sheep in this country are white.
3. In this country, there are some sheep, which are white on at least one side.

deefine

I thought triggering was based on PTSD and trauma, not offense and irritation.

I'm not saying anyone's saying that it's based on the latter, but when we keep adding words that are "triggering", it seems like we're creating new sensitivities and word bans and excuses to get upset at potentially typically innocent usages...

And I think adding more and more to "triggering" diminutizes actual trauma and PTSD, as if people are assigning those two things to themselves as excuse shields to regulate conversation and keep themselves in a bubble of avoiding having to be uncomfortable, and creating weak minds and uncritical thinking, instead of progressively talking things out while clarifying intent and meaning.

deefine

My office room workmate of two years, an Iraq war vet, was literally triggered into a psychotic threatening reaction today, after saying that he takes varying paths home in case someone's following him, because it makes it harder for them to know where to plant a bomb in the road... and I said that's not normal, that's warzone thinking, and he said "I've been conditioned to warzone thinking from being in Iraq", and I said "Well, if you can be conditioned to that, then you can be reconditioned to normal city life so you don't have to worry about bombs."

He yells "No you cant! You can't be reconditioned, you mother123er! You don't understand! F123 you!"... and didn't walk out, just stared at me like he was ready to attack me if I said anything against it. I literally felt physically threatened for limb and life based on how he talked and looked right there.

That's real triggering. PTSD triggering. Trauma triggering... like,to the point of a real look of threat of violence in someone's eyes, based on a war, seeing and experiencing violence and losing people, maybe watching them suffer and die, maybe even based on some sort of brainwashing, maybe some sort of paranoia or sickness... not offense or irritation or uncomfortableness.

This guy might be sick or irrational, but at least I know it's based on trauma. Unless the words you see and hear trigger involuntary and seemingly irrational (to others) emotional responses from you based on trauma you experienced beyond your will, I don't consider them triggering.

AceCuddlerMike

FWIW, many government employees are strongly advised to vary their routes to and from work. Even when working in our own country.

I’m not pro-censorship nor would I really advocate a word ban of any sort. However, there are certain phrases that when used in conversation with me make me perceive verbal abuse. One such phrase appears to be extremely popular: “You need to...” Unless someone has a law enforcement badge issued by a legitimate government, or is confirmed by my employer’s HR department to be in a supervisory position above my position, I always respond to the person, “YOU NEED TO stop telling me what I need to do!!!!!” I’ve talked back to my mother like this in recent years, and interdepartmental coworkers.

I almost didn’t come back to Orange County, CA because my former roommates constantly ordered me around: “You need to this, you can’t that”. YOU CAN’T tell me what I can’t do!

I often feel like the angsty, rebellious 16-year-old I once was in my currently-almost-37-year-old body. Doctors refuse to diagnose me as intellectually challenged, which is good because I am not. I’m just never gonna grow up to the liking of people who are more than 3 years older than me, and I’m constantly stuck around people who are 15+ years older than me.

Seriously, I care how I am being talked to during moments that I am not simultaneously being touched. I won’t want physical affection from someone who tells me what I need to do, what I cannot do, how immature I supposedly am, etc. because it’s called ordering another around when you don’t have authority to do so aka verbal abuse according to the owner & author of VerbalAbuse.com. My parents wondered why our finger-interlock kiss we’ve done since my tween years meant nothing to me in my adolescence and early adulthood. They wondered why I wouldn’t take any hugs for the final trimester of my childhood.

geoff1000

A female character in a movie, freaked out at the mention of "Ice". Her husband had faked his own murder by hanging himself in the cellar, jumping off a block of ice, which then melted away, leading the police to believe a third party was responsible. Sometimes we can never guess what a person's specific triggers are.

A friend asked to borrow some money. I was going to text back, "I don't like you being unhappy, so I've put some money in your account". I reworded it, to not begin "I don't like you . . ." When I asked my taxi radio operator for a break, he would say, "No problem at all", but with a long pause after the "No" making it sound like a refusal. Sometimes it's a good idea to set the tone of a message at the beginning, so the reader's / listener's mind doesn't run off and need guiding back.

Most black people haven't been enslaved, but many feel they are disadvantaged by historical treatment of their ancestors. Ditto for women. It will take a long time for that collective memory to be erased. The trigger words aren't just offensive, they are reminders of a situation that is only gradually going away.

geoff1000

@davebutton
Your colleague might benefit from the "Battlemind" program.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlemind

Maybe your company should consider an "ex-forces" group, so that those who have experienced similar situations can support each other, and have a collective voice to Human Resources.

I heard of a soldier just back from a tour, driving along a country lane, when a police officer stepped out from behind a hedge, and pointed a radar speed gun at him. The soldier, thinking he was about to be shot, swerved through the hedge on the opposite side of the road.

Deconditioning is possible, but it is likely to take far longer than conditioning.

Another approach your colleague could take, is to continue their military thinking, but with a different focus. It's unlikely that the "bad guys" will target him over anyone else, and if they are targeting ex-military, he would be better advised to blend in with the civilian population ; as insurgents do.

Your colleague could also recognise that he is more likely to be caught up in an incident ( terrorism or "normal" crime ) aimed at someone else ; and their experience and skill could be useful. They should always have a cellphone, so they can report any incident, and using technical terms which will help law enforcement. They should keep up to date with first-aid training, stay fit and sober and off drugs. Most military people never retire, they just stop wearing the uniform.

A colleague complained that his wife thought him too concerned about "bad guys" when they went on a foreign holiday. I told him that means he is not only protecting her from physical harm, but also from the psychological harm of worrying about it. Military people have to accept that actual fighting is only a very small part of their role : most of their role is to discourage the enemy, and most of the rest is to convince the civilians of their country that they are a waste of time and money.

To be utterly despised and rejected, by the people for whom you would lay down your life, can be harder to deal with than an enemy who is "only" trying to kill you. "Those whom the God's wish to destroy, They first make mad."

deefine

Thanks @AceCuddlerMike and @geoff1000 for your input, it's all helpful to me, though I don't know that it would be helpful to my workmate, who seems to have been avoiding or lashing out against help or anything but the apparent fantasy world he seems to have gone further into. Some of the things he says sound like Die Hard stuff. I think it's just up to my boss to deal with it. Sorry to derail anything, I just really felt squirmish seeing "triggerry" passed around for things that didn't appear to be based on trauma, especially when I'd just dealt with a real trauma-based trigger reaction that appeared to come out of nowhere and become verbally abusive and plausibly physically threatening.

So anyway, while I do appreciate clarity with words, and what makes people uncomfortable, I do object to "trigger" being used for words that just make you uncomfortable, because it seems to come from a position of misunderstanding trauma, or using it to shut people down or make an artificially safe bubble of ignorance that results in someone coming off as wanting to be treated special. "Triggerry" further expands its application to almost a silly degree, like we're playing a game of guessing what will "trigger" someone's uncomfortableness or annoyance...

Let's be honest and find better words for words that make you uncomfortable or annoyed or irittated... you can just say any of those three words flat out and we'll know what you mean... because "trigger" indicates a violent explosive act (like a gun or bomb), which literally happens with people with trauma, up to and including the use of weapons in the reaction, which can cause new trauma, and it's difficult to communicate when words are over-applied, misunderstood, or misused.

Sorry to sound so dire or dissentious.

geoff1000

I think being called a liar, thief. or cheat ; is quite "triggery". Anyone accusing me of that, had better present solid evidence.

@geoff1000 I feel the same way about those insults/accusations. I was quite visibly angry on 9/18/2020 because the eldest member of my team at work falsely accused me of lying and successfully pitted the entire team against me. For half of the following week everyone was constantly whispering. It reminded me of Gwen Stefani's opening line of "Hollaback Girl": "I heard that you were talking s***, and you didn't think that I would hear it". Well of course I heard it, in both English and Spanish and I understood every word I caught as I am fluent in both languages plus American Sign Language (ASL).

I'm autistic, I'm proud of it, and when I'm tired or stressed, my non-verbal cues will be exactly what the FBI, CIA, etc. say means the person is lying. But whatever words I am saying behind those cues should NOT be automatically taken as a lie, especially by those who KNOW I have autism because I have told them so. I certainly told the entire team on multiple occasions. For the record he was NEVER an FBI agent nor was he ever a U.S. Federal agent of any sort. He's from Central America and has a history of getting himself in a lot of trouble speaking more English than he understands.

geoff1000

@APV
Even a properly administered polygraph test, is notoriously unreliable. It detects lying, by detecting the psychological stress of lying ; which can also be caused by the stress of the situation, including the stress of being falsely accused of lying.

If they were any good, we wouldn't need expensive judges and juries ; so the retention of those judicial elements, is proof that the legal heads of nations don't think lying can be reliably detected. The eldest member of your team is clearly an ignorant and arrogant tw#t.

Great points @geoff1000 😎 Thank you💛

geoff1000

@APV
You're welcome. 😊

littermate

@davebutton you don't sound dire -- thanks for the definition of triggering. Perhaps I could use a different word than "triggery" -- like "tweaky"... People's responses tend to be over the top to some words, hence my use of "triggery" but I like what you write and appreciate it, thanks.

@geoff1000
"they don't have a gender stereotype they can be urged to follow..."
hahahahahaha - clearly you aren't hip to women's experience. We have plenty of stereotypes people urge us to follow.

Thanks everyone for your comments and thoughts. Appreciate it! I was surprised to see very little of what I was predicting I'd see, and that alone was pretty cool.

I don't like being called a girl or a lady. I like being called a woman or a person. Them's not fighting words, but I just don't prefer it. Somehow in the use of those words, I feel my capability, power and agency subtracted from the equation.

I often use the word "dude" and actually use it toward women too, but had one woman tell me that a few men she's close to abhor that word.

I like being called sweetie, hon/hun, lovie, and all that as long as the tone is warm and sweet, or matter of fact, and not "Hey, piece of meat, how about it?"

Thanks everyone! What a crew.

quixotic_life

@littermate ~ Someone wrote me they were looking for a "kind lady" to cuddle with. I told them they'd only be getting half that with me ~ lol

I don't like the word either. It makes me think of someone who's fancy, hoity-toity, or at least minds their Ps and Qs (and I don't even know what means other than it's something proper "ladies" do).

I also don't like adult females being referred to as "girls". There are so many strip clubs here that use "girls" in their advertisements. It's really quite cringy, especially given their proximity to elementary schools! Just Ew!