@Catloaf
" It felt like you were quick to jump down @aquarising9’s throat."
No. Perhaps standing ground, but not jumping down her throat. Is an infographic different from a meme? Hard to tell these days especially when there's no context. My point is why is there even an infographic that lays out how a woman or man should be? New age or not, my point still hasn't been addressed even by you. Call me subtly snide, but so is this:
"You’re making assumptions about the intents of people sharing here and being subtly snide, in my opinion."
I was never making assumptions about people sharing. As said before, my issue is with the infographic bullet pointing how people should behave and what constitutes a good human being.
@Saysoh …Okay. I get it. You like projecting. Where were you “standing your ground”? Against what? Are we in a Mexican standoff here?
What point did I not answer? I’m saying you are misunderstanding the context behind this infographic entirely.
Do you actually know anything about esoteric or New Age beliefs? I’m not asking if you believe in that stuff, I’m asking if you know what the common lines of thought in stuff like New Age consist of. Because right now you’re assuming this graphic is about enforcing gender roles, and it really isn’t, since men and women (by decree of this belief) have both energies inside them, ebbing and flowing in concentration and informing their decisions, thought processes, and behaviours throughout life.
I’m laughing at the idea of a person who believes in New Age stuff trying to enforce gender roles and telling men and women they must be this or that otherwise they aren’t what they are because it’s just…so out of character. Do you know how progressive people who live in that lifestyle often are, and how many times people misunderstand the “divine counterpart” belief, thinking that masculine = man, and feminine = woman and that the two are mutually exclusive?
The other thing I’ll say is that this graphic is not defining what’s good or bad. I’d say it’s more along the lines of defining what’s going on mentally and behaviourally for people who have unresolved trauma versus people who have worked through that trauma. The perception of good and bad is entirely on you, my friend.
And yeah, that’s not a meme. Doge is a meme. Charlie Bit My Finger is a meme. Bad Luck Brian is a meme. Infographics, like this, are not memes. Well, they can be I guess. But I hiiighly doubt this particular image has like 1 billion people repeating it verbatim as a humourous reference in conversation. Take a look at this biggol boi for an example of an infographic turned meme.
@Melomaniac9 thank you for reading!
@catloaf I’m here for the kitty chonk chart😍
@Darrenwalker really enjoyed reading what you wrote
"Feeling overly hurt, defensive, or sensitive about something someone has said or done. Allowing someone to push your buttons and get under your skin in a way that others do not. Feeling highly reactive and quick to blame. Difficulty being objective, getting perspective, and standing in the other person's shoes."
Maybe, but I'm trying to understand perspective. That has been my whole point.
"Do you actually know anything about esoteric or New Age beliefs"
No, I do not.
"Because right now you’re assuming this graphic is about enforcing gender roles, and it really isn’t, since men and women (by decree of this belief) have both energies inside them, ebbing and flowing in concentration and informing their decisions, thought processes, and behaviours throughout life."
Fair. I have no issue admitting i'm ignorant in a lot of things. I thought I was asking honest questions, but apparently I'm not. All good.
"The other thing I’ll say is that this graphic is not defining what’s good or bad. I’d say it’s more along the lines of defining what’s going on mentally and behaviourally for people who have unresolved trauma versus people who have worked through that trauma. The perception of good and bad is entirely on you, my friend."
This is also fair. Trauma, I get it. Dad died, severe car wreck, Mom died, and since her death the family has just gone in different directions. Maybe I'm discombobulated, confused, whatever, but I'm here for a reason and it's not to be overly defensive and push buttons. I'm just trying to reconnect from grief and I simply thought I was just asking questions.
I'm not trying to be a dick.
@Saysoh I don’t really think you’re being a dick, man. Maybe just a little…on edge? In your earlier comments mind you. You seem open to learn. I dunno how to describe it. But I get that all the time too, some people find me scathing or too blunt, maybe even obnoxiously so at times (never with my clients - I am sure to bring out the part of me that nurtures like mother, or whatever it is they need). You’re no more a phallus than I am a female dog. We just argue from a very stoic voice I guess.
My “voice”, especially in writing, is predominantly what New Age folks would refer to as “masculine energy”.
@catloaf I'm not even try to argue as much as discuss. I often talk about the art of conversation being lost, but maybe I'm actually the one that hasn't been keeping up with the times? I've been told I ask good questions, but intentions get lost in translation when it comes to the internet.
I love this community!! I wish I had something other than adoration to contribute, but I currently don't. ♡♡♡
If only for the sake of balance, I think @aquariusrising6 posting that image is a positive contribution.
On this topic more generally, I personally feel the labels of TM and HM encourage stereotyping men. In the same way, if we were to list examples of 'toxic femininity', it would read like a bunch of offensive female stereotypes.
Thank you @CharlesThePoet for articulating so excellently what I think is the optimal perspective on this.
@quixotic_life Thank you for the recognition. Society has attempted to teach me many forms of unhealthy masculinity such as boys/men don’t cry, height, muscles and athleticism matters, don’t hug or touch other guys outside of a handshake and definitely don’t show positive emotions that could be vulnerable like love ❤️ and etc). I share and support other men. Despite me being tall, athletic, muscular and having a deep voice, I tell other men that being masculine is not about body size, sports or women that you attract but about who you are as a person and what positive values that you stand for. I am happy to have many positive qualities, be affectionate (share hugs 🤗 with anyone from young to old and all genders). Also to be aware of my feelings, express when appropriate and use my life experiences to help others personally and professionally. Thank you @MCcuddles2
I'm really enjoying this thread so far! I was giving some more thought to it, and I realized that my career has given me the most stark examples of healthy masculinity vs toxic masculinity. I work in a male-dominated industry, for reference.
"Healthy masculinity" makes me think of the amazing male allies I've had along the way, both at work and while I was still completing my degree. These men had a distinct social advantage over me in that environment and stood nothing to gain, and a lot to risk (reputation-wise, at least) by helping me out, but still took steps toward making things more equitable. These are some of their actions I'd categorize under healthy masculinity:
As a side note - I don't agree that toxic masculinity is the same as negative stereotypes of men, @Mark . I would consider it more along the lines of "unhealthy traits that men are pressured to have". Same with toxic femininity.
I'll also add: In this divide over the image @aquariusrising6 posted, I'd have to say I'm not crazy about it. I don't see why some of my personality traits should be arbitrarily labeled as "masculine". In my post-secondary logic courses, me and the other gals often got the highest marks in the class. Who decided that being logical should be considered masculine?
(I don't even think "being logical" is an inherent trait for more men than women. The men and women I've met who haven't taken formal logic courses have usually turned out to be equally logical/illogical. The men have just been more likely to mislabel justifications for emotional responses as logic.)
I dunno. I feel like these divisions feed into stereotyping men and women more than anything else in this thread. But I respect everyone's right to disagree.
I agree it's not the same, I just think such labels might encourage that type of thinking. I like your way of defining it in regards to cultural pressure. That feels like a more constructive label which sadly cannot be squeezed into two words.
For me, many examples of 'healthy masculinity' just seem like examples of being a considerate person. So it feels weird to then have the gender emphasized rather than a more inclusive recognition of decency and toxicity.
For me, many examples of healthy masculinity just seem like examples of being a decent person. So it feels weird to then have the gender emphasized rather than a more inclusive recognition of decency and toxicity.
Agreed on this! And to be honest, I don't see the actions I listed in my first comment as inherently gendered - they're just good things I've seen men do, from a position of power, because they were good people and wanted to do their part to level our playing field. If there were an extremely lucrative field of work that was female-dominated and tended to shut men out, I'm sure the exact same actions would be a godsend to the men trying to enter.
@squeakytoy I agree. The chart is taking ossified ideas of what is feminine and masculine and repackaging it under the guise of “new age” thinking. The goal should be a chart of desirable “human” characteristics without gender distinctions. I suspect the chart was created by a white heterosexual person because if we learned anything from the LGBTQ community and psychological research over the past few years, traditional male and female assigned traits are extremely fluid in everyone. The chart to me is nothing more than an altered stealth patriarchal system of reductive labels.
I also agree with @DarrenWalker. The division of positive and negative traits is more useful than any male/female dichotomy. But even that can be problematic if presented with specific contexts and situations which would render some positive traits useless and negative traits desirable. No trait is immutable.
The main thing we need to do is practice humaning and CUR—Communication, Understanding and Respect. That is the Royal Flush of being human and transcends distinctions of gender.
@FunCartel I don’t know if the creator of the graphic is hetero, safe to assume given what Im writing below, but she is white. She doesn’t talk much about herself on her website (amiracleworkbook.com), but I think I can provide further context to a post like this.
She works exclusively with women, and one of her areas of supposed expertise is relationships between, lo and behold, men and women. Not sure if she specialises in other relationships or orientations but I highly doubt that’s who her clientele is anyway with the predominant mention of straight male-female relationships. So I don’t think she’s intentionally going out of her way to be non-inclusive - she knows who her target audience is, and yep. It seems to be straight women (not necessarily white though, as her blog images show some diversity).
I’m gonna file my previous contribution under “I thought I knew what this was about, till I actually went and took a look at the source”.
@Catloaf As I said, it was speculation on my part and ultimately not important to my, and @squeakytoy and @DarrenWalker’s points.
@aquariusrising6 I’ve found the chart you shared helpful in the past for correcting my energy toxicity levels.
Dumb-woke guy here, just wanted to say I think we got off track with focusing on labels. They only have as much power as you allow. We can over analyze the terms “masculine” and “feminine” all we want, but that doesn’t mean they have to define gender identification or roles.
I’m pretty sure the consensus in this thread is that awesome people are typically balanced between yin and yang. You can still have toxic, masculine (yang) energy if you’re non-binary, cis-woman, etc. So healthy masculinity, to me, is basically a positive role model that exudes yang energy, without losing their yin. ☯️
Masculinity and feminine in terms of how we act or treat each other seems to be more of a construct based on traditions and norms in the past. Treating each other as human that have their own strengths, weakness and vulnerability, being open to both giving and accepting help from other regardless of gender would help get rid of these labels. Hopefully as social norms change with each generation these labels will eventually not hold as much weight as it had in the past and maybe lesser today(albeit just a little less).
@blisscuddles 👍👍👍 You get it. Many people like these constructs because it is like a tether to a familiar place and they are afraid to completely part with the familiarity. That in and of itself is not wrong per se, but it is an impediment to moving forward to a place where there is neither male nor female energy, traits, or whatever moniker you wish to assign to a place that is purely people with unique personalities, thoughts and ideas that we can see clearly without the haze of male/female divisiveness.
This seems extremely strange to me. According to a lot of people here, it seems that there is no difference in behaviour patterns between men and women, and it's mostly a societal construct.
Our biology is different, our brains are structured differently, the way we experience the world and process information is different (you can prove this with FMRI scans). It seems really strange to me to deny the science.
You can acknowledge the difference between males and females without taking away from their equality as human beings.
@FunCartel I’m just pointing this stuff out because I have a feeling some straight, white chum will come around and harp at you for daring mention it at all. Not that I’m too worried, the forum collective has fun watching them have tantrums. 🌚
@MCcuddles2 The biology is separate from societal constructs.
@FunCartel the biological differences, such as brain organization, brain structure and hormonal balance is directly related to behaviour traits
@MCcuddles2 To a limited degree. One can change their behavior and thought process in spite of biology. And science is only scratching the surface of human behavior and thought.
@Catloaf yes, I am sure they will throw a masculine hissy if afforded the opportunity. I say masculine so it falls in their proper box of labels they seem to admire.
@FunCartel "to a limited degree" is an opinion. I would argue that yes one can change their behaviour and process but also "to a degree".
This argument is called "nature vs. nurture" and is older than both of us.
On a related note, I'm a huge proponent of neuroplasticity, but I also acknowledge our biological limitstions.
Good book to read on healthy masculinity is Wild At Heart by John Eldridge.
@cookiecrumb: I read that as a teen. It hit me hard. Really convicted me. In fact, it's what pushed me over the edge into finally deciding to get baptized and devote my life to God.
...In retrospect, it's not a great book.
@MCcuddles2 iI am well aware of nature vs nurture, Chomsky vs. Vygotsky, etc. Logic alone tells us that everything is to a degree if you acknowledge a different facet has influence to a degree. But your claim of denying science because of a goal of purely human energies and traits or something of that sort is wrongheaded. Science itself is fluid and not absolute. Case in point—it has only been in the last 20 years that we have begun to slightly understand traumatic brain energies and repeated concussions. Now we have been clubbing fellow humans since we walked upright hundreds of thousands years ago, yet we finally understand the significance? I say we can aspire to greater things without gender boundaries and that is not denying science. In fact, it is one of the main principles of science to explain why something is—not what it can’t be. To say I can’t eventually morph into a monkey in a few generations because I am denying science that says I am human is the same argument religious fanatics once used against Darwinism and science when evolution was put forth.
Evolution works through favorable, random mutations in genetic code.
This process is distinct from our ability to modify our behaviour through intellect.
You can aspire to be anything, I agree, but there are biological boundaries in place. You can change human behaviour through culture, but many of the traits, which are in general present in a gender will continue to be present via genetic transfer in future generations.
You can try to change humans through education, but you can't change the genetic baseline. Take away the culture and we go back to our biological firmware.