Okay, adding to my Utopia that people would fully read comments before responding and would respect them. Also would not move goalposts in debates.
Fair enough, though. I'll Google (while we still have it) that thing about Bill and Chase bank.
Your utopia proposal seemed legit, and I don't doubt you've worked out the details.
I, on the other hand, have never considered this. So I haven't a clue how to go about creating a utopia.
But if you could kindly answer my previous three questions, at least, then you would have enlightened some of us on this topic.
I mean, if it makes sense and is practical, I could become a huge advocate for this utopia of yours.
Again this topic is not a debate. And also again, I don’t engage in debate with those engaging in bad faith topic. Keep that to gab.
@TxTom There is a direct correlation between education level and income level and job satisfaction. More often times than not, success in school comes from supportive parents that make enough to eat and have the time to tutor kids , feed them, and put them to bed at a decent time and dress them in warm clothes.
The opposite is true. Students that do poorly as early as 3rd grade have a higher chance of going to jail. There is a term: school to prison pipeline. Students who do poorly that early will develop bad self efficacy , truancy , and poor literacy. When they graduate , they will struggle to get jobs and will lead to crime and homelessness.
Lastly, you discuss the decisions that "poor people can make." That sounds like someone who is not in touch with the cycle of poverty : poor education, lack of job opportunities in poor neighborhoods (more money in gangs and drugs), two or one parent(s) working double shifts means no one is minding the kids and their grades/activity , food deserts (lack of high quality supermarkets or too far away on bus route and too many convenience stores), working and living paycheck to paycheck, poor areas have higher instances of substance abuse, domestic abuse, high crime areas (3 out of 5 children in some areas have family members that have been killed or incarcerated), teen pregnancy is higher in poorer areas and under developed or less educated countries, etc.
@Minestrone101 Thanks. You're absolutely right. What I do know about those trends is exactly as you just explained.
@natickben
You’re not “just asking questions.” You’re making statements implying your positions and saying “just asking questions” to imply you’re just trying to have a neutral conversation. It’s a troll tactic:
Ty! It’s psychological trolling and it’s not that sly. It’s not okay either.
This one too: “I’m agreeing with you” “Anyone with basic knowledge of blank would agree with me”
@TxTom Win an argument on your own merit for once?
@stormydaycuddle
Ty! It’s psychological trolling and it’s not that sly. It’s not okay either
yep. It’s sad that it works so often.
@natickben No, I'm not interested in debating you. I haven't challenged anything you've said.
I simply picked ideas that you proposed and asked for you to elaborate on them.
I'm not going to challenge, or debate any insight you could offer, I promise.
Zomg…
@TxTom Yeah it's very unfortunate. And as a boxing fan, it makes me so happy to see boxers like the best boxer Terrence Crawford using his first $1 million to build a gym for him and his coach to run a youth boxing program. It's like a hub for the community.
I am pretty lucky I am where I am. While my parents grew up poor , they came to the United States with lots of hopes. My grandfather on my mom's side came to the US first and I found out 2 decades later he started a second family. My mom was almost taken from my grandma in Macau by loan sharks over a debt. My dad waited tables in Chinatown (and faced a bunched of racism) to pay for college and grad school. Also, none of that would have occured if Kennedy didn't lift the Chinese Exclusion Act.
My brother and I grew up in the suburbs in a two income household , had homework help and 3 square means, and our parents paid for our cars and college (never spoiled or pampered but we both got enough and got a education). My brother is more on the side of saying pple should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and I'm more of a hippy. But we both were set up and lucky imo.
In an ideal world , everyone would be set up w basic education, healthcare , and living necessities imo (shelter and food ).
@natickben goal post moving!!! I was trying to think of a good way to say that. I was describing it more as “marching an argument forward while leaving the essence behind until you can deny involvement and feign innocence” but that doesn’t capture it correctly.
@Minestrone101 Admittedly, I'm not familiar with Terrence Crawford, but that is cool.
@stormydaycuddle right idea though!!
@stormydaycuddle it's possible that @TxTom has not been exposed to many of these ideas and is also unaware of his rhetorical style or that it bothers you or @natickben . I think it's a really righteous and I honestly enjoy everyone's contribution. Thanks folks! and maybe some of @TxTom s comments gives us the extra push to fully hash out our arguments or maybe he enjoys playing devil's advocate. or maybe he is a troll. who knows. but i think he is adding stuff to the discussion.
@natickben I'm not sure why, but you (and @stormydaycuddle ) have spent all your effort so far assigning some devious motivation behind my questions...
...and no effort on just answering with a few details. I'm not asking for a dissertation, just a couple of brief answers.
@Minestrone101 its the tactics that are immoral. It’s not asking questions. It’s the way they are phrased.
@TxTom that is just patently false. I provided answers, you refused to do your work. When I responded and asked questions, you moved the goalposts and ignored them. You continued with bad faith tactics “oh I might be a fan” which we all know is not true, and a bad faith sarcastic attempt to continue to troll. I simply refuse to engage. I’m sorry you don’t like that, but it’s a you problem, not a me problem.
Again, this topic is not a debate. In fact, my FIRST comment here was that utopia is impossible to achieve because it is not a universal. To achieve one person’s utopia would be to impose another’s dystopia. But bad faith argument is not part of mine.
I'm not arguing with you. It appears you want to argue, though.
Said earlier to me in the midst of the conversation when he was ‘just asking’ @BoomerSpooner a question.
@TxTom as @natickben said I want you to stop moving goalposts. I’d appreciate it greatly if you stopped saying, “I respect you” after you say something unkind. “I agree with you” after you’ve moved a goal post and “anyone with a basic knowledge of blank will agree with me” as a way of attempting to shut your opponent down by in essence saying they aren’t bright if they don’t agree while refusing to actually provide a reasonable argument.
If you’re going to debate all I ask is that you leave the honey soaked deceptively innocent tactics out of it. Ty.
Just drop the phases. If your arguments are in good faith you won’t need to use them in every debate you’re in. 🤷🏼♀️easy peasy.
I just finished watching Saw X. What did I miss?
leave the honey soaked deceptively innocent tactics out of it. Ty. Just drop the phases.
Yes, ma'am. I'll do my best to keep my question asking to a bare minimum, as I can clearly see now it greatly upsets people.
And the moving of posts.
It’s the way they are phrased.
But if I absolutely, positively must ask a question, I would greatly appreciate your expertise in helping me phrase it before I post it. You're an editor; I am not, and I think your assistance would be beneficial. Ty.
@stormydaycuddle Possibly. My feeling is that maybe he doesn't know that he's doing it or that is just his way of debating to challenge points. Maybe I'm wrong. Also, your early life experience sounds intense. Glad things are much better now.
Maybe in an ideal world, we'd be rich and wouldn't care, and couldn't even debate about poverty bc we wouldn't know what that is. lol
@Mike403 You missed SawXI. 🪚 lol. How was the movie ?
I also appreciate the mods letting us debate it out. maybe it hasn't gotten out of hand. These days people's perspectives , experiences, and politics are so polarized, and it makes it hard to come towards some common ground.
Ask questions all you want. I’m asking you to leave the script out of it. If @Minestrone101 is right and you just need to realize you use these types of tactics you won’t mind me telling you the last comment where you said you wouldn’t ask questions and deferred to my expertise came across as, “cut of your nose to spite your face and place the blame elsewhere.” I don’t mind pointing it out. If that’s what it takes to bring the trolling to your attention since you have implied you’re oblivious to it. You seem so sincerely willing to learn and I think everyone else may benefit from understanding the subtext if they don’t already. Glad we’ve come to an agreement! 🤗 (and yeah, I’m aware of the end)
@TxTom You may be genuinely curious, so I'm not sure if you're aware, or you may not want this advice, but imo "I'm just asking questions, that's all" on the internet has the vibe of sounding like that annoying kid who waves a pencil near your eyes and you ask them to stop, but they say they aren't even touching you. You ask them to stop waving that pencil around, then they protest why aren't they allowed to move their hands? If you're just genuinely curious about natickben's insight, rephrasing your questions to sound less challenging would get you the desired response. This is just a lighthearted thread about Utopias, light questions would keep in tone with the thread's tone.
For example, when you asked about what incentive would people have to do the things that society needs done (I was a bit curious about about that too), I would personally have left out the comment about people going back to rubbing sticks together, it makes it sound more like a debate and that you already have a stance on the topic. You're free to write how you wish of course, just my two cents.
@stormydaycuddle Hope that clarified things! Hard to get one by between an editor and professor of rhetoric. lol and @sunnysideup 's input.
All I can add is that @TxTom still looks like Greg Kinnear!
@sunnysideup Thanks for your two pennies. That really does help.
No, I had no idea the "I'm just asking questions" thingy was considered bad form. I certainly don't want to come off as that annoying, nerdy McFly brat from school. Gawd, I hated that guy. He must've gotten a wedgie at least once from everyone at school.
Yeah, I realize it is a lighthearted thread, not too serious, and I thought I was asking fairly innocuous questions. Guess not.
The rubbing sticks thing wasn't sarcasm or anything. That is actually how some people have learned to stop fire. And since @natickben had indicated he would get rid of a lot of unnecessary crap, I wasn't sure if my oven and HVAC was on that list. To be honest, I never learned the sticks trick. I've always used a magnesium block and/or magnifying glass.
@Minestrone101
As long as he doesn't suck, I guess that's okay.
@txtom I do say that on occasion but I make it incredibly clear it’s rhetorical and a dry statement. On a happier note I don’t think anyone has picked up on the sticks thing. In those wilderness shows at least one person drops out immediately because they thought they could do it on their own.
@stormydaycuddle I'll learn the stick trick.
I mean, if Forrest Gump can figure it out while on a deserted island, I sure as hell can.
@TxTom He's one of my favorite actors. he's always sarcastic , a bit dark, and complex/mysterious.
Actually, I've been wanting to take survival courses. Both for fun and in case of the end of the world. lol