Healthy Masculinity

Will564Will564
in General

I imagine most of us have heard/read a good a bit about toxic masculinity. One thing it always makes me think about is what defines healthy masculinity.

What’s always made it a tricky topic is that for me, it feels like any trait associated with healthy masculinity is really just a trait that is healthy in a person of any gender. More on that later.

That leads to this belief that I have: what defines masculinity is different for every man. It’s fine for every man to have their own version of masculinity that’s right for them, as long as that version of masculinity isn’t projected or expected of other men or all men. There is no universal masculine trait, IMO.

This cuddling article I read a while ago summed it up pretty well:

https://www.snugglewithsam.com/blog/2020/2/20/beaman

As far as healthy masculine traits, the way I feel is that there are universal healthy human traits, it’s just that some may be more challenging for men in particular. So those are the ones that tend to be highlighted as particularly healthy for men, because they are ones that men should/can work towards.

One example could be men listening to/ceding to/giving credit/power to women when the should.

You could say, “Well, that’s true for any two people. People should listen to each other and let others take charge in the right times due to their strengths or positions”. And that’s totally true.

But, it could be argued that generally speaking, men listen to men, women listen to women, and women listen to men (can also include all of the other genders here, I’m just using a simple example). But, due to the way society is, men may not listen to women as often as in the other situations.

So, that would be a healthy trait for men to work on, even though it’s a universally positive one.

So my two questions for people:

  1. What are some traits that define your masculinity personally but aren’t universally masculine? (If people of other genders want to answer, if you have any traits that you feel are masculine in you, I’m curious about those too).

  2. What are some traits of universally healthy masculinity that you either see in the men you know or feel that men can work on/should improve upon?

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Comments

  • Minestrone101Minestrone101
    edited May 2024

    I think it's two sides of the same coin. I think masculinity looks to me: strong but willing to be compassionate and empathetic and vulnerable , not held down by rigid definitions, smart and educated, hardworking, willing to fight for the right reasons but also able to step down if the stakes are low.

    *Likes to cuddle.

  • Will564Will564

    @Minestrone101

    I think it's two sides of the same coin. I think masculinity looks to me: strong but willing to be compassionate and empathetic and vulnerable , not held down by rigid definitions, smart and educated, hardworking, willing to fight for the right reasons but also able to step down if the stakes are low.

    I definitely like all of those (though strong and smart are open to a lot of interpretation.). I personally would actually out those in the universally healthy human category, though it will be somewhat different for each person.

    Are there some of those that you think are generally more challenging for men compared to people of other genders?

    *Likes to cuddle.

    The bets of all of them. 🙂

  • Minestrone101Minestrone101
    edited May 2024

    @Will564 I think it's good to be smart to, but in some circles some men feel being too well read to be effeminate. In the movie the Hurricane about Ruben the Hurricane Carter, the narrator talks about becoming a warrior poet.

    I think some men need their masculinity defined by others , such as being in control, stepping on others, not showing emotions, or bursting into anger bc they pent up emotions or can't express them in a healthy way. I think some of these definitions are limiting and even goes against the virtue of kindness that I hold dearly - interrupting and pushing others around and being cruel goes against love and kindness.

    I think everyone should explore and find what works for themselves rather than letting some charismatic public figure or organization or entity do it for you.

  • JubalJubal
    edited May 2024

    A brawler knows how to fight. A warrior knows when not to fight.

    Put another way, a healthy masculine trait is having the ability (the strength, the knowledge, and the willingness) to fight effectively when necessary to protect oneself or loved ones. The toxic version is the guy who goes out getting into brawls over trifles.

  • SoosonSooson

    I'm chatting with Andrew Tate and asking for his input. I will keep you guys updated.

  • CuddleDuncanCuddleDuncan Mod

    @Sooson 🤣🤣🤣

  • TxTomTxTom

    Yay!

    Another self-immolating thread on male guilt and toxicity!

  • SBGSBG

    a healthy masculine trait is having the ability...to fight effectively

    I want to push back on this idea slightly bc I've known a lot of great men and very few of them know how to _fight _fight, like get into a fistfight. It's not really something needed day-to-day. I would say that standing up for the people around you, those weaker and less privileged, is a form of fighting that is much more needed today. And that looks like: saying something when you see abuse or hear sexist comments around a woman, helping the elderly, assisting the poor, standing up against injustice when you see it - fighting socially with your voice and your actions and your money, not having to physically protect someone or yourself.

    I feel like a lot of male energy is spent on "how would I fight in this situation," or "who would win in this matchup" and I don't consider that healthy masculinity. The courage to speak up is far more manly. I personally want bold men who will stand with me and NOT fight. I get the primal urge to protect and I think that's good, but I think it gets misdirected.

    And also, many men may feel hugely emasculated if they come across a situation where they weren't strong enough, or prepared for a physical fight, or couldn't take the heat of battle, or struggled afterwards with their actions - all kinds of situations at home and in war where they didn't feel like they were "strong enough." I think pinning masculinity on the ability to fight is a recipe for a lot of men to feel sh!t about themselves.

  • Platypus0110Platypus0110

    As a man, I work daily to push through my existing mental and physical capacities. To be stronger, quicker, smarter. I watch out for others in my circle with compassion and an eye to their well being outside of physical threat.

    Part of manliness is the responsibility of a leader. Being a leader means knowing how to lead others to grow and take care of themselves too.

    Knowing how to fight is a good personal bonus but it's a small piece of the puzzle. Many other tools exist to do the same job. Some, before the threat even occurs.

    But, certainly, being willing to physically defend is an instinct. It's a question of how training via culture or upbringing ruins or contaminates it.

  • Will564Will564

    think some men need their masculinity defined by others , such as being in control, stepping on others, not showing emotions, or bursting into anger bc they pent up emotions or can't express them in a healthy way. I think some of these definitions are limiting and even goes against the virtue of kindness that I hold dearly - interrupting and pushing others around and being cruel goes against love and kindness.

    I think everyone should explore and find what works for themselves rather than letting some charismatic public figure or organization or entity do it for you.

    I agree 100%. This leads into what I’ll mention below. But I think a lot of men have trouble processing and understanding their emotions because they’re never taught how to do so.

    And I definitely agree that for many men, the feeling of having to live up to some limited version of masculinity is an issue and is frustrating. I know for me it definitely is, which is part of the reason why I made this thread. And I’m getting better at being myself and blocking out all of these standards, but it can still be tough sometimes. I feel like it’s really improved a lot over the last 10-20 years or so though, both for me personally and in society as a whole.

    I agree entirely with what @SBG said. She said it so perfectly. It sums up a lot of what I feel personally as a man. And what I like about all of the traits she described is that anyone of any gender is capable of having those traits.

    Put another way, a healthy masculine trait is having the ability (the strength, the knowledge, and the willingness) to fight effectively when necessary to protect oneself or loved ones. The toxic version is the guy who goes out getting into brawls over trifles.

    To me, this is the perfect example of something that it’s completely fine for any man to feel like it’s a healthy part of their own masculinity. If it’s important for them to feel that way as a man, awesome.

    But I don’t think it’s something that should projected onto all men, saying that they need it to be healthy. I know for me personally, it’s definitely not.

    @TXTom

    I get the impression that you’re joking here, but I view the thread as the exact opposite. To me, when guys feel guilty about toxic masculinity, it’s when they take their own version of masculinity and try to create this universal standard of what all guys should be like. It’s not that those traits are bad…there’s no reason to feel guilty about them, or to feel like they take away from your own masculinity.

    But to use them to build up this definition of a man, I think it’s damaging and wrong to apply that to all men (some of which are different but no less masculine). And if someone feels guilt over losing that kind of control, I kind of feel like they should. Everyone should be allowed to define how gender works for them, but not for others.

    So that’s why I view it as an empowering topic. One that’s encouraging everyone to be their true authentic selves.

  • Will564Will564

    Part of manliness is the responsibility of a leader. Being a leader means knowing how to lead others to grow and take care of themselves too.

    I agree that leadership is a very positive trait. I don’t directly associate it with manliness though. I have known women who are very good leaders who I did not view as manly.

  • Vocalist100Vocalist100

    @Will564 I'm with you on the idea that it's a human and neither masculine nor feminine trait. I understand others might need to define what it means to be a man (or woman) but if someone were to ask me what I identify as, I always say human. I have no clue what it means to identify as a man or as masculine. All the traits people have listed are, to me, a healthy human trait.

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery
    edited May 2024

    In my polycule we have several trans masc and non-binary amab folks, so masculinity and gender are frequent topics of discussion.

    One of the things that has differentiated humans from other animals is not only the division of labor along gender/sex, but also the specialization of skills - not necessarily tied to gender/sex but rather to lines of individuals who pass their knowledge on.

    What constitutes "masculine" or "feminine" has changed many times and varies across cultures - and there have always been a significant number of outliers that defy the definitions. "Fighting", "leading", and "protecting" terms often are associated with masculinity in our culture now look different today than they did 50, 100, or 500 years ago.

    One of my former NB-amab partners put it like this (shared with their permission):

    toxic masculinity was defining who I was based off my genitals and a bunch of dead dudes and people trying to please dead dudes. The conflict between that person and who I really was caused me to internalize self-hatred, frustration, shame, confusion. Because I couldn't deal with all that bottled up self-hate, I took it out on everyone around me. Especially the women and gay guys who got to live freer, or so I thought. It wasn't until I stopped trying to pretend I was some macho guy and started embracing all of me, expressing all of me, that I realized the dead dudes don't care and don't matter...only the living do. And we're killing them by forcing them to be stuck in the past or pictures of unrealistic perfection.

  • JubalJubal

    @SBG I was pointing this out as a trait to compare the healthy vs the toxic version, not necessarily that "every man should be able to". Yes, there are other forms of fighting - vigorously advocating for a tenant against a slumlord comes to mind.

  • TxTomTxTom

    @Will564 No, not joking. Also not feeling guilty. Thanks.

    ➵ TxTom
    ☣️ toxically positive
    🐄💨 pro-cow farting
    🐻 safe-as-a-bear
    💀 dead dudes rule
    🇺🇸 patriotic cuddle nerd 🤓

  • cuddlefaerycuddlefaery

    @TxTom you can worm your way around my previously stated boundaries all you like, but an intentional mocking dig at people I care about is too far. Please take the reference to my partner's quote out of your signature and do not use it again.

    Really, what part of "don't respond to my posts" is so difficult for you? I've really been trying to just ignore your baiting and sly call outs where you think you're in the clear because you didn't tag me, but I'm rather sick of it.

  • MorpheusMorpheus

    What’s going on here?

  • TxTomTxTom

    No.

    You posted comments in a public forum. It is not against TOS to quote other User's public comments. I did not tag you.

    Your partner does not own a copyright or trademark on the phrase "dead dudes."

    What happened to just ignoring and scrolling past my comments, as you had stated before you would do?

    Feel free to quote anything I post, or add it to your own signature.

    And, above all, have a nice day.

  • SBGSBG

    What do we think about the idea of men as providers? I feel like if a single mom has to take three jobs to feed her family and keep a roof over their heads, she's just buckling down and doing what she has to do. Or, if a woman in a partnership makes more than her male partner, that has historically been seen as emasculating. But for a man to struggle to feed his family, be out of a job, or make less than his partner, that seems to hit closer to the male identity than it does for a woman. Most men seem to find joy in providing for others, and really take it to heart when they can't.

  • Platypus0110Platypus0110

    I agree. It is part of the male identity.

    It's also why the suicide rate in divorced males who lose everything including kids is so high. Our role is our identity.

  • Sunrise_SnuggleSunrise_Snuggle

    I don't feel joy in providing for others.

  • TxTomTxTom

    @Platypus0110 @SBG
    Agree 100%. Men and women are created to compliment each other, not compete, not fight.

    We men have an instinctive drive to provide and protect those that we love. If, for whatever reason, we fail in that role, we die inside and can become capable of monstrous things.

  • pmvinespmvines

    @TxTom
    My guy. We get it . You don't like it when there are threads that, in your opinion , have any kind of perceived criticism about men. But you are literally going from thread to thread making passive aggressive comments and trolling other members for the sake of being adversarial. It's a type of a tantrum that only comes across as impulsive and angry, and makes you into a nuisance, as opposed to someone who has anything objectively meaningful to add . You don't have to agree with anything in the least . However there are ways of expressing disagreement with thoughtful expression. As an adult , I encourage you to stop coming across like a child who is mad that he hasn't gotten his way about something . I know you're capable , as even though I don't necessarily see eye to eye with you on a lot of things on the forums , I have seen you express yourself in a thoughtful and insightful manner. I don't even have anything personally against you , honestly I don't , however you're starting to legit pick arguments and troll after people lately, and that's just not cool so yes, I am calling you out for it . And this is coming from somebody who posts about his poops on a fairly regular basis .

  • SBGSBG

    So - providing and protecting are pretty central to the male identity, we would say. How do men express these in healthy ways? What's the most "healthy masculine" version of them?

  • JasonCuddlesJasonCuddles

    I personally don't worry about what's masculine or whatever. I try to align my life with my morals which can be difficult in this world, and it also gets complicated. For example, if I buy an e-bike I am saving the environment and people's lives with my reduction in air pollution, but it's at the cost of taking part in killing a specific child. Obviously we as a society have decided that that child's life isn't worth a dollar. I disagree but since I don't have enough purchasing power to change things I am unfortunately stuck with that bad decision.

    Anyways I feel I am getting off topic. The other thing I do is call out bad behaviour(which I just did with the battery industry). I don't like to allow not nice things to hide in the darkness where they fester to the detriment of all humanity.

    Oh also decide what your morals are by yourself. Don't let people tell you what your morals are.

    So yeah, TLDR, decide who you are and what you believe, then stand up for it and don't allow poor behaviour to hide.

  • JoyfulHeartJoyfulHeart

    @TxTom Saying something that you (should) know is likely to be taken as a jab is in poor taste. If you really didn't know, then when you are told, an apology would be appropriate. Doubling down on this sort of thing is not a good look.

    Please make an effort to show respect, open-mindedness, and a willingness to learn from others while interacting in the forum.

    [Moderator]

  • Platypus0110Platypus0110

    SBG,

    The healthy way is for a man to have his private personal "kingdom"- a clan, or more specifically, the natural family. It's chemistry.

    Society doesn't allow that now.

  • SpooniesBackSpooniesBack

    What exactly should he apologize for? Having a different viewpoint?

    [Not a Moderator]

  • Mike403Mike403

    @SpooniesBack - You can express your opinion without coming across as mocking/baiting. Either do it respectfully or don't comment at all. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion as you. That's the way the world works.

  • SpooniesBackSpooniesBack

    I like his writing style. I think many people today are too sensitive. His posts are certainly more interesting than reading about pmvines bowel movements.

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