@chocobunny Thanks for clarifying.
Kinda funny that some folks discuss how no one reads the forums. I think this is an example of false consensus effect: "Bc I believe/do something that's reasonable, then everyone does too."
While that may not be the majority of the site, I believe a sizeable amount of people lurk or participate in the forums marginally and some others browse from time to time. It's safe to say it's not "nobody" reading based on quantitative data that is available. Maybe the threads do make a difference in the community.
@Minestrone101 I don't believe those views are unique users - so every time we come back to catch up or refresh the page it adds another view.
True, it's not "nobody", but as a percentage of site users it's quite low. I think most don't even realize it's here. I know it took me several months, and I'm the sort who enjoys forums and chats 😅
Toxic masculinity doesn’t exist. Woke mind virus.
@panda619 great job at reading the original post and thread title. Such excellent addition to the conversation.
@Minestrone101
@cuddlefaery is correct, each time anyone clicks on a thread, it registers a view, even if they do it five times in a row.
But yes, we certainly have lots of lurkers, and they come out of the woodwork, publicly and especially in PM, every time my thread for them gets posted on, anew. 😊
I'm always baffled when people don't know about the message boards. It's on the home page, without even scrolling. 🤔 I never would have stayed on this site without the connection they brought, day one.
~ Sunset Snuggles
🦄 Enthusiast 🏞 Travel Fiend 🐘 Animal Lover
@panda619 That's sarcasm, right?
@SunsetSnuggles 75 messages!
I think this topic is important because with how much the term "toxic masculinity" has been talked about, some men take it as all forms of masculinity being referred to as toxic and feel that they're being labeled as toxic just for being themselves.
So by highlighting healthy masculinity, I think it helps men to distinguish what parts about masculinity are helpful and positive and which forms are not.
As I mentioned before, a light bulb moment for me in this thread is realizing that a lot of healthy masculine traits occur more often in men than women...and that doesn't have to mean they can't be in women or that they have to be in all men. And it's possible that some men have some and other men have others, and that's completely fine...not every man has to have them all.
As @cuddlefaery mentioned earlier, this may be the first time that men are having to confront this issue, and it can be uncomfortable. But I really think that discomfort like that is where the most growth and improvement occurs. And this is true for any person and any topic, not just masculinity.
I've recently run across a few more videos about the topic recently, particularly talking about how it's affecting young men in particular. It would take me a while to go through each, but here they are:
I expect masculine people to sit comfortably in their grit, wrong-ness and pain. They should welcome it and grow from it, the worse it is, the better it is. In a world of more pain, masculine people have more potential to strengthen.
As a man, I’ve had to come to terms with the fact to receive affection it has to be purchased or otherwise earned as a transactional condition. Pretending that I’m being given unconditional love is often one of the conditions itself. Meanwhile, every non-masculine woman I’ve been in relationships with understands love to automatically have the idealistic, unconditional qualities. Transactional love appears petty to them, while on my side it’s the only thing I have access to. Thankfully with spiritual work, the pain of loneliness blossoms into the richness of solitude. Whatever the reason is, I can’t expect a woman in general to make that exact journey, but when I see the monastic and truly independent women out there, I feel respect and admiration for their hard work.
“Everyone has a plan until they’re punched in the face” is a Mike Tyson quote I know the importance of. I grew up in an area defined by poverty, trauma, and addiction, and I also travel a lot. People love to talk a lot of social theory but I can’t help to take it with a grain of salt when I see how much we still live in an ancient physical world and the biological reality of “might makes right” is still going strong with the majority of the earth’s population. I didn’t want this to be an important part of being a man, but that reckless ideal was physically removed from me, through force. Because of what testosterone does to my body I have a responsibility as a specialist to practice combat and security. I would never expect a non-masculine person to win a physical fight. This is clear from the “man or bear” risk dilemma described by women themselves.
I managed a professional firm, and there I saw all the men I consider masculine would gladly get their project done even while working with someone they absolutely hate and can’t get along with socially. I’ve come to not expect this of non-masculine people, because it just doesn’t work that way. Don’t ask me why. For example when most men have a social problem, you can tell him to mind his business and finish the project anyway. Also in this example, it’s important to note this approach does not work with women, so for them I had to adapt into becoming a counselor, personal assistant, gossip columnist, astrologist, life strategist, confidant, and pocket therapist on top of being a manager.
I’m noticing internet formats don’t accurately deal with this so I’m skipping it.
I expect a masculine person to toughen and adapt their own systems to maximum effort near death before requesting any compromise of another person. I don’t have this expectation of non-masculine people. For example, if any man in my life wants help paying his bills I expect him to be dying of dehydration or injury on a construction site, sacrificing his own health and safety to earn his own money before I would give him anything. I expect to see the blood, sweat, and tears. However, I don’t do that to that to the women in my life because I don’t expect them to be masculine. But maybe I should start.
Anyway..
Thanks for trying to see what my perspectives look like, and I hope you have a great day in these novel times.
(Reformatted for auto-outline numbering and clarity)
@Kahya posted: "if any man in my life wants help paying his bills I expect him to be dying of dehydration or injury on a construction site, sacrificing his own health and safety to earn his own money before I would give him anything."
Why?
@Kahya I feel like this is the worldview of a very lonely person
@Kahya I agree with every single word that you said. I wake up every day and no matter what I’m feeling, I get up and I put in work. For the most part, people don’t care about men or how we feel or what we are going through. We are expected to get things done and to provide. I will always do whatever it takes even it it means sacrificing myself to make sure that I provide for my wife and my Daughter. I don’t just mean financially, I mean in every way, I don’t care how tired I am, if my Daughter needs to talk, I’m going to give her my attention.
@SunsetSnuggles
Thats why, because I do it. If I can do it, another man can do it. I at least need to see some effort.
@Kahya thank you for your words.
@Morpheus posted: "If I can do it, another man can do it."
Thus far, I have survived deep depression and suicidal struggles, but I wouldn't wish it on another soul.
I don't understand choosing apathy when we could choose compassion.
Just because we lived through something doesn't mean another person can. We all have different thresholds and histories.
@Morpheus
I'm genuinely curious about some of your thoughts and feelings about this. In two of the videos I watched, it was mentioned the idea that there's not a lot of empathy for men as society has been changing.
I wake up every day and no matter what I’m feeling, I get up and I put in work. For the most part, people don’t care about men or how we feel or what we are going through.
This is something I really like to explore, because I've always felt like part of the problem is men don't feel comfortable talking about their emotions about this kind of thing with one another.
I read a blog post about this somewhat recently. The idea is that men haven't been comfortable talking about their emotions with one another. So, they often go to women to unload all of their emotions. In the past, women would just take it on no matter what they themselves were going through, often because they didn't really have a choice. Now, women have stopped doing that because it's too much for them and they no longer have to.
So it leaves men with all of these pent up emotions with no one to talk to them about...especially if they feel stigma about seeing a therapist. Interestingly enough, I think that's one reason why men resort to cuddling too.
So for me, the biggest solution is for us as men to care about each others' emotions and to express them with one another. When you say that people don't care about how men feel, my mind goes to us men caring about each others' emotions instead of acting like we don't have them and don't need to talk about them.
Do you think you would feel better if you have male friends that you felt comfortable talking with all of your emotions about? Male friends who you felt did care about what you're going through, especially if they're going through the same thing?
(My apologies if I'm assuming you don't when you already do. If that's the case, my question would change to why you still feel that for the most part people don't care about mens' feelings if you have male friends who do? What do you think is missing from those interactions?)
We are expected to get things done and to provide. I will always do whatever it takes even it it means sacrificing myself to make sure that I provide for my wife and my Daughter. I don’t just mean financially, I mean in every way, I don’t care how tired I am, if my Daughter needs to talk, I’m going to give her my attention.
So I'm not sure if you're saying this is a problem or not. You're saying there's an expectation, but it also sounds like that expectation is what you want and that you're embracing it.
Or is it that you feel like you want to embrace it, but that you don't feel it's appreciated?
@Will564 thank you for your post, I think you’ve done a great job with this. To clarify, I don’t feel bad. I have accepted things and accept that these are my manly duties and I am okay with it. I think that’s where people may not quite get it. We as men sacrifice to take care of our family but that it also our ultimate happiness. At least mine. I would not be happy if I didn’t have a family to sacrifice for. As far as friends, I have male friends. I work in a shop with over 50 men. I have 15 men that report to me directly. I always make sure that I allow them the space to speak to me about whatever they want to and they return the favor. I encourage the sharing of emotions. I also have a group chat with male friends where we text back and forth, sometimes we just BS but the chat is always open to the sharing of emotions. As far as females, I have a wife, I’m a girl Dad and a brother to Sisters so I have close females I can talk to. I embrace it and I feel appreciated but that doesn’t change the facts of how I feel men are looked at. I think rather than fight it, more men should embrace and accept it. I hope that answers your questions.
This got kind of long so I'll use spoiler tags. But I find it to be a really interesting topic to look into!
I embrace it and I feel appreciated but that doesn’t change the facts of how I feel men are looked at.
So at the end of the second video I posted, the creator mentioned how often what we see and read about online aren't accurate reflections of what we experience in our day to day lives, because a lot of the content we see is created just to get attention.
Or, our interactions with people online aren't a good representation of true feelings because the anonymity of if allows people to give knee jerk emotional reactions that they often would not give if they truly got to know the other person and everything about their lives.
So what it sounds like to me is that you're saying the way you feel men are looked at (I'm assuming that's based on what you see online and in other forms of media) doesn't line up with how you feel the men and women in your own life look at you as a man.
Because before you said that for the most part people don't care about what men go through. But it sounds like you do have men and women you know who do care what you go through as man...which means your first statement was more about other men.
So do you think it's possible that those other men also have people in their lives that do care about what they go through, just like the people in your life do....it's just that because we take in so much content online, that we don't see that kind of care because of the format of all of this?
Or is it that you think most men are missing the kind of genuine connections and care and appreciation that you have in your own life, and when you say that people don't care about men, you're speaking more for them than yourself?
If it's the first one, I think it's that we read articles and see social media posts to gain attention that highlights the negative, whereas in our day to day lives we do actually have people that care about us because they genuinely know us and it's more authentic.
In that first case, what I'm saying is...is it possible that the way you're describing how men are looked at isn't REALLY the way men are looked at, but instead kind of a false perception of it that the internet and social media creates?
If it's the second case, then I think it kind of goes back to what I said in my other post, about how I think a good solution is men finding ways to support each other emotionally when women no longer have the energy or feel the need to do it since they have so much else on their plates.
To clarify, I don’t feel bad. I have accepted things and accept that these are my manly duties and I am okay with it. I think that’s where people may not quite get it. I think rather than fight it, more men should embrace and accept it.
To clarify, I don’t feel bad. I have accepted things and accept that these are my manly duties and I am okay with it. I think that’s where people may not quite get it.
I think rather than fight it, more men should embrace and accept it.
Even though what I mentioned earlier may already address this, you're right because I don't know if I quite get it either. Which is why I like asking you about this, because maybe you can help me understand it better.
You just said that you don't feel bad and that you're ok with it, but you said earlier that you don't feel like people care about what men are going through. So you still felt like you wanted to say that, so I feel like there's something there (unless, of course, you were speaking solely for other men and not yourself, which goes back to what I said up top).
But if you are speaking for yourself here, then the vibe I'm getting is you're saying that it's not ideal, but you know it's not going to change. So, it feels good to vent about it to kind of get those emotions out and be heard, but once you do, then you feel better and it makes it easier to accept things.
And if that's the case, I totally relate. I definitely find some catharsis in letting out my emotions about something I feel won't change. It reminds me a lot of the conversation @SBG and I had in another thread about just wanting to vent vs. asking for advice when it comes to problems.
I appreciate you delving into all of this with me. There are so many different takes and experiences in this thread and I know I've enjoyed hearing all of them.
@Will564 My opinion is not based on what I see on line or other forms of media, despite being on these forums, I spend very little time online. I try to avoid social media as much as possible. My opinion is based on what I see out in the world on an every day basis.
When I said people don’t care about men, I meant that in general. Overall I feel that society doesn’t care about men and their emotions. This includes myself. I don’t even know that I would say people care about my emotions but I do have people in my life who at the very least, we acknowledge ourselves and our emotions. I think regardless of the connections that an individual man has, it doesn’t change how society views men. I also don’t think there are any false perceptions, I think exactly what I said, society doesn’t care about men. Here’s an example, we have been really busy at work. Myself and my team, we climb utility poles, work inside manholes, crawl under houses, work around electricity and work in dangerous situations in general all the time. The expectation is that we do whatever it takes to get the job done. There’s no oh I’m sorry you’re having a tough day, you don’t have the climb poles today. It’s more, I acknowledge that you’re having a bad day, too bad, it’s your job, if you want to feed your family, go climb that pole.
The second part that you said about venting and that making me feel better, yes that helps. Nothing is going to make things chang but being acknowledged more so than anything helps, venting yes to a lesser degree.
I was texting back and forth with my Daughter last night, she was in a chatty mood. Right before she said goodnight, she said thank you for being here for me. I was tired, I’ve worked 10 days straight 12 hours a day with an hour and a half commute in each direction. You know what society would say if I wasn’t there for her, society would say I was a piece of shit. Oh she’s gonna have Daddy issues. Oh if you don’t take care of her, another man will blah blah blah Society doesn’t care that I worked 12 hours a day and I’m on day 10, all society sees is how much I care and provide.
I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world though and so I go out every day and give everything that I have because that’s my duty.
I am struck yet again by the discrepancy between what men think is expected of them, and what women usually say they expect of them. Example: Men think the top priorities women want are a financial and physical security provider. Women say they want a partner who participate equally in care tasks and is emotionally available.
So why is this discrepancy happening?
Are men creating their own unreasonable demands, misinterpreting what is being asked of them? Are the demands actually coming from other men's expectations, rather than from women?
Or perhaps are women not being fully honest, saying one thing but expecting another? Are women truly pushing for progress towards gender equality while expecting conservative partnerships? (Progressive and conservative used here not in political sense, but future-focused and past-focused)
I'm very masculine but do also love me some pedis !
Thank you for your question, it’s because I admire what an important time that would be for him. Getting familiarity with waking up at 4am day after day of construction labor on a broken body while being financially broke, helped me to thrive, so I wouldn’t want to interrupt that process for him, or other situations whatever they might be. If he’s a man claiming a masculine identity then he’s supposed to figure out his own way, in my opinion that accountability is asked for in the title.
I really do want compassion to work in general, but personally it’s not safe for me to assume it will. The reason my compassion has to be guarded is because of experiences with addicts and abusive people.
@SBG
I agree, but that loneliness allows for solitude, which is right for me.
@cuddlefaery
Women say they want a partner who participate equally in care tasks and is emotionally available.
I think women truly want this but I think they’re much happier receiving this once they feel physically safe and the bills are paid.
My nail girl always supplies me with a tall boy 😇
I think regardless of the connections that an individual man has, it doesn’t change how society views men. I also don’t think there are any false perceptions, I think exactly what I said, society doesn’t care about men. Here’s an example, we have been really busy at work. Myself and my team, we climb utility poles, work inside manholes, crawl under houses, work around electricity and work in dangerous situations in general all the time. The expectation is that we do whatever it takes to get the job done. There’s no oh I’m sorry you’re having a tough day, you don’t have the climb poles today. It’s more, I acknowledge that you’re having a bad day, too bad, it’s your job, if you want to feed your family, go climb that pole.
I think it's helpful if we kind of define who "society" is exactly. In this case, it sounds like "society" is who's in charge of your company, or if it's the government, or even just customers. And it sounds like you feel you're not treated like a human and that you have to earn your paycheck no matter how you feel.
(there could be an entire side discussion about how capitalism works, at least in the US, but that's a completely different topic).
I completely agree that whoever you're referring to doesn't care about your own personal feelings in regards to your job and expects you to get it done no matter what.
However, I would suggest that this isn't an issue unique to men. I don't think women are given a pass on this either. I don't think women at their jobs are allowed to do less just because of how they are feeling. Oftentimes women are actually penalized for being mothers because they aren't as "productive" in terms of what they can give a job once childcare becomes a part of their life.
I can understand that the physical nature of your job has a natural difficulty of it that requires sacrifice to makes sure that it is done correctly that may not be present in all jobs. And I can understand that since there are more men in your line of work you see men experiencing that on a day to day basis. However, there are men who are in other areas of work that are not as physical, and I don't think that women receive any more special treatment when it comes to their feelings about not having the same job expectations as men. I can say for sure in my job this isn't the case. I am not expected to do any more as a man than any of my female co-workers.
So while I do agree with you in the context of your job, "society" doesn't care about the men in your job. But I think this can also be extended to all kinds of people. So what you're saying is true, but it's also that it can be true for people who are not men as well.
And when I say this, please understand that I'm not diminishing the difficulty that you and the men on your job are going through. I'm totally acknowledging it. But I think I can acknowledge it while also acknowledging that there are other people, both men and women, who also experience very similar situations.
Overall I feel that society doesn’t care about men and their emotions. This includes myself. I don’t even know that I would say people care about my emotions but I do have people in my life who at the very least, we acknowledge ourselves and our emotions.
I think this is something that we as men can help to change, though. If we feel like no one in society cares about our emotions and we would like them too, why can't we as men start caring about one another's emotions? We may not be able to control what "society" (as in those in charge of us) care about us, but can't we improve how we care about each other? Why do we have to let "society" dictate that? Why can't we talk about it amongst our male friends and family members and be more open and honest about it?
I guess what I'm saying is...if all of us men want others to care about our emotions, why can't we start by caring about each others' emotions?
I was tired, I’ve worked 10 days straight 12 hours a day with an hour and a half commute in each direction. You know what society would say if I wasn’t there for her, society would say I was a piece of shit. Oh she’s gonna have Daddy issues. Oh if you don’t take care of her, another man will blah blah blah Society doesn’t care that I worked 12 hours a day and I’m on day 10, all society sees is how much I care and provide.
So again, I think kind of comes down to relationships and people understanding one another. Who exactly is "society"? A random person on the street that doesn't know you? I think that people do this all of the time to one another about everything. I think people give unfair expectations to everyone that they don't know, not taking the time to understand what someone is going through.
But, we know what WE go through, because we deal with it every day. And it's hard. And we all often feel like no one cares. But I also don't think that WE care about other random people on the street and what they're going through either...because it takes a lot of time and energy. It's easier to judge without seeing the full story.
So I think what's important is how those that DO know us and DO understand what we go through care about us, and listen to us. That's why I keep going back to the idea of having positive male friends.
If you have male friends who are in similar situations to you, then they should care that you worked 12 hours a day for the tenth day. They SHOULD understand that you're human, and you can't be perfect all of the time. They SHOULD understand that you're exhausted and that just because it's hard for you to do all of that work and ALWAYS be there for your daughter every single time, it doesn't make you a bad person.
I guess what I'm saying is sometimes we put unfair expectations on ourselves because of our perceptions of what random strangers might think instead focusing on what those who know us and care about us might think.
But in return, understand that we probably do the same thing to other strangers. Or even if we don't personally, other strangers do it to other strangers. And this probably happens to women in addition to men. Women may not understand some of the pressures men go through, but likewise, men may not understand some of the pressures women go through. We can have a tendency to only understand our own problems because those are the ones we experience every day, and feel like no one cares about them. But other people often feel the same thing too.
So why is this discrepancy happening? Are men creating their own unreasonable demands, misinterpreting what is being asked of them? Are the demands actually coming from other men's expectations, rather than from women? Or perhaps are women not being fully honest, saying one thing but expecting another? Are women truly pushing for progress towards gender equality while expecting conservative partnerships? (Progressive and conservative used here not in political sense, but future-focused and past-focused)
What an extremely good question. I really don't know. I'm guessing there's got to be some of both, but to what degree and percentage, I don't know.
I did find one part in the second video I mentioned interesting, where the one woman mentioned that there are a lot of "mediocre" men out there, and that it used to be be that those "mediocre" men could often find a female partner because women used to be more dependent on men financially. But, because now jobs are so much more accessible to women (and there are fewer physical ones than there used to be) and it's easier for women to support themselves financially, they can have higher standards for men as partners.
So I definitely think it's possible that women want all four things. They may prioritize the care tasks and emotionally availability the most out of the four, but it may be that they think it's possible to get all four and are holding out for that, though finding it more difficult to find.
But who knows, I can't say I have a clear idea on that, I could be completely wrong.
@Will564 I was just using my job as an example. I think society feels this way in general. Defining society, I just mean the majority of people in the world. In terms of women, I agree, they face their own challenges. I’m talking about men though because the topic is healthy masculinity. I understand both genders can have masculine and feminine traits. Healthy femininity is a whole other thread. Lastly, I think you’re on a great path to where we should be but it’s not where we are. Defining we, ether majority of everyone in the world.
I posted this is the music thread, may as well post it here since it applies
Through my 20's and 30's...
I've had a boyfriend who made more than me.
I've had a boyfriend who worked two jobs.
I've had a boyfriend who went to college and wasn't working.
I've had a boyfriend who was neither working, nor pursuing any education.
I was head over heels for each of them. Respected each of them. Felt emotionally safe with each of them. Felt each of them were masculine.
Just sharing my experience and view. Men are not just something to be used for financial security, or respected for how many hours they put in.
I respect men for so many different things. For the courage to be vulnerable. For the tenacity to fight their inner demons. For the tenderness they show me. For the way they convey their thoughts.
Men have much to offer. Being a provider can be part of it, but it certainly isn't all of it. If a man cannot or doesn't want to provide, it has never and would never be a dealbreaker, for me.
I’m talking about men though
I understand. As I mentioned earlier, I do think in a lot of ways there's a lack of empathy for men. I think they feel a lot of pressure without an outlet for the difficulty that that pressure causes.
But...I think part of the problem with that is that men don't feel comfortable talking to EACH OTHER about that kind of common pressure. They feel like they just have to take it and put on a tough face in front of each other. Which I think is why songs like the one you posted are made.
Lastly, I think you’re on a great path to where we should be but it’s not where we are.
I agree. But that's why I think the idea of men talking about all of it to each other is so helpful. It's a good starting point. When one person brings up the conversation to one of his male friends, and it goes well, and they both feel better about it and are like "Wow, why didn't we do this before, that felt so much better!" And then they can both think, "Hey, maybe I can do that with another one of my friends?", and it can kind of spread more and more.
I honestly think it's mostly just about people being authentic and genuine with each other instead of hiding behind things they feel like they have to because they all feel like they have to put up this front. Once they realize they're all doing it, they can be true to themselves and not have to put up the front any mroe.
Thanks so much for posting that! I think it's so great to see all of the different kinds of things men can offer, beyond just making money.