I hope people don’t mistake my comments for negativity btw, they are actually meant to be quite positive.
@Kahya Excellent post.
I know what women expect of me forcing dollars into my g-string.
They expect dancing excellence!
@Kahya
I've wanted to respond to your post but I've been very hesitant to because I've wanted to make sure my response is productive in some way. There is just so much to unpack and I think the two of us could talk for hours about all of this.
You and I come from vastly different backgrounds and experiences, which shapes our very different ways of viewing the world and this topic. This thread has been a good opportunity for me to hear perspectives similar to my own and ones that are very different. But, it's also why a forum situation like this can only go so far.
So instead of giving my detailed breakdown of everything you said, I'll try to stick to a few main thoughts of mine.
First, reading about your experiences does give me a big sense of gratitude for my life. I do live in a bubble compared to what is going on globally, in large part due to what so many people in the world do and have to go through. I'm very fortunate that I'm able to have a very happy and fulfilling life without having to experience so much of the pain you have described.
Second, I think where the two of us would connect the most is in the area of solitude vs. loneliness. For very different reasons, you and I both have seen the value of solitude. I find it so fascinating that despite how completely different we are, we both have been led to seeing that.
The other area that we have in common deals with your first point. While I don't view it and word it quite the way that you do, it does remind me very much of the philosophy of stoicism which is one I've tried to implement into my life in many ways.
Third, I view myself as a very interesting mix of masculine and feminine traits, so it's hard to say how much I would fit into the mold of a "masculine person" or "feminine person". Anyone who saw me on the street would most likely view me as a male, due to my visual appearance, so I'm certainly not feminine in an aesthetic sense. And there are some qualities that you view as masculine that do fit me, such as the desire and ability to work with people different than me or who I may not easily get along with in order to complete a task.
However, by many of your other definitions, I would be a very feminine person. And unless my life drastically changes in a way it never has, I will never fit those definitions of masculinity. And I have no problem of with that in and of itself. What I always seek is to be treated as an equal, of equal importance, value and respect for being who I am and not having to live up to those definitions of masculinity because they are not me.
I understand that not every person in this world will ever give me that. I do my best to try to learn from those people and understand why they feel that way. But I will never form true relationships with people who will not give me that because it doesn't help my life. Instead I focus on forming relationships with those who do, and that is what helps me to live a happy and fulfilling life that is right for me.
@Morpheus
I can't speak for anyone else but I certainly don't view your comments as negative. I view them as genuine, and I think conversations are at their best when people can be the most genuine while also being open to hearing about others' experiences that aren't the same.
I'm watching a video right now about all of this that I may come back and post about later. But where it starts lines up with some of the things you've said, though it's aimed at younger men:
"When referring to the problems men face, we use words like 'accountability', or we say 'they need to get their act together' or 'if they just opened up more about their emotions', it will fix everything. We've decided that when it comes to men, compassion is a zero sum game. And that if you feel bad for men, it immediately outs you as someone who might be anti-women or someone who's gone red pill."
The same video goes on to talk about how both far right and far left versions of men aren't helpful. There are a lot of very interesting points in it I really like.
@SunsetSnuggles
And in the same video, it talks about how even though women still often view men as economic providers, it can be done in different ways. Kind of like how you mentioned, and kind of like how I mentioned to @SBG earlier.
"Part of that is to embrace this wonderful progress that women have made and many times acknowledge that your female partner is just better at this whole money thing, and just supporting her and getting out of her way. Your job is just to play a role and ensure that you can provide for the family."
There are so many different ways things can play out and still work.
@Will564 I finally got around to watching those videos - good stuff.
I think many women do care about the state of men in general but don't do a good job of being empathetic and it comes out as man bashing. Tho I think a lot of women are tired of coddling men overall and have just stopped.
I'm not commenting here (too much) at the moment. But I really have enjoyed reading other's comments here, some were eye opening and informative for me. Others were not, but that's to be expected here on the forums.😊
Tho I think a lot of women are tired of coddling men overall and have just stopped.
👍👍👍
@SBG I have definitely stopped coddling people in general. No, not just towards men but with ALL GENDERS! ALL PEOPLE! 😊👍
I can give an encouraging pep talk to those who need it, but I'll not coddle or give out random-"I ❤ Everybody"- head pats anymore. 😌
@SBG
I'm actually really curious to hear more about this. I honestly hope everyone in the thread can handle talking about this openly, honestly and maturely without it being a problem.
Can you go into detail more about what you mean by coddling? What kinds of things have women typically done for men in the past that they stopped putting up with?
The one that I've already mentioned in this thread is the emotional labor aspect. I read this blog post about it and thought it was really good:
https://www.snugglewithsam.com/blog/2020/2/27/toxicmasculinity
The other things I can think of are issues I've heard pop up in relationships. Now that most women have jobs, I've heard one issue is that in households, women still do more of the housework than men do, even though now the two are working in jobs equally. Is it that women aren't putting up with things like that anymore?
This relates to raising children too though that one's more complicated.
Or is it more things like women used to do extra things for men just for the sake of it? Like, I think about things like wives kind of being responsible for their husbands' health, even though that should have always been the man's own responsibility.
Those are the things I'm thinking of. Am I on the right track, or are there a lot of other types of things I'm missing?
@SBG @Katota It's not just the desire to be coddled, but the EXPECTATION to be coddled that gets me . I've had too many grown ass adults tell me that I'm being mean and judgemental and "cliquey" for refusing to cater to butt hurt egos and take their side because they view themselves as a victim for not getting their way . But you can't force someone to feel sorry for you, especially when you act like a piece of nose crud .
I've had too many grown ass adults tell me that I'm being mean and judgemental and "cliquey" for refusing to cater to butt hurt egos and take their side because they view themselves as a victim for not getting their way .
@Pmvines Lol! 😁 I unfortunately work along side individuals as you have described, though I'm not "cliquey" as I prefer being solo as far as this job goes. Hell, I even (happily) take my breaks solo.😁
But you can't force someone to feel sorry for you, especially when you act like a piece of nose crud .
No, you can't indeed.😁 Of course with my experience with certain people, being a nose crud isn't an "act" with them. They really are nose cruds!😆
I have definitely stopped coddling people in general. No, not just towards men but with ALL GENDERS! ALL PEOPLE!
@Katota this for me, although I differentiate between coddling/enabling people and showing empathy. I try my best to give people the benefit of the doubt - once - but if they don't take that opportunity to take a step back and reflect, I'm not going to keep handholding them until they show that they'll meet me halfway. I'm an educator, not a martyr.
@Will564 I can't speak for @SBG , but for me the coddling centers around having to do the emotional labor for men in order to maintain semi-functional relationships.
For those who don't quite understand what "emotional labor" means, it's the mental work one does to manage emotions in order for the relationship to be functional on some level (even if dysfunctional). With emotional labor, one partner doesn't manage their emotions adequately and so passes off the consequences on to the other person. This is in contrast to "emotional work", where the person is doing their own internal self-work to manage their emotions and thus not burden other people with the consequences.
Historically, women have born the brunt of emotional labor in almost all relationships of all kinds, not just romantic. Women raise children, who cannot yet regulate their emotions, and so bear the brunt of the behaviors that result from emotional dysregulation. In romantic heterosexual pairings, men aren't expected to express themselves emotionally and instead are supposed to suppress their emotions out in the world, so they then bring home all those pent up frustrations, anxieties, etc. and end up taking it out on their partners physically/verbally/emotionally. Research has shown repeatedly that in relationships where men are taught emotional regulation skills and better emotional communication skills, rates of domestic conflict and abuse go down.
And it's not just violence and abuse that are causes for emotional labor. Even just everyday interactions, where women frequently have to repress their own thoughts and emotions to cater to those of men, takes a huge toll mentally and emotionally. And it's inescapable - at work, at home, and socially, pretty much anywhere women interact with men they are still largely expected to "look pretty, stay quiet". Even if that is not overtly said or what a man thinks he believes, it is what effectively happens as if a woman behaves as opinionated or as emotionally as a man she gets branded as "difficult", "angry", "bitchy", "hysterical", "overly emotional", "too sensitive", etc. Jokes get cracked about her "time of the month" or about how "manly" she is for speaking her mind. And of course she doesn't get taken seriously. So women learn to make themselves smaller, quieter when in men's presence to smooth the way so things can continue without the judgements and interference of those men.
And a lot of the time men aren't even aware that they are doing it. Truly kind men will speak over women and tell them what they actually mean (aka mansplaining). Men who consider themselves allies and feminists will dominate conversations trying to be helpful. Husbands won't believe they are sexist, but never even consider that perhaps their wives don't feel like listening to them gripe about their boss after work while any time they try to vent about their day with the kids it gets brushed off because the man needs to decompress (as if the wife doesn't). A woman will try to have a conversation with her partner about her emotional needs not being met and he'll shut down/panic because he's not equipped to have that sort of discussion, so instead she ends up soothing him and meeting his emotional needs. Again. The list goes on.
For a long time women just silently put up with this, but for a few who broke the mold. Over the past 50 years or so, though, women have started pushing back. The problem is, instead of listening to women and thinking "of course I want my partner to feel equally cared for and supported, so I need to figure out how to make this work better", a LOT of men have instead gone on the defensive "I don't do that! You're terrible for saying that. Now my feelings are hurt!" Forcing women, yet again, to do the emotional labor and try to coax men into listening and learning, soothing feathers. And a lot of women have just finally had enough of it.🤷🏻♀️
Another woman wanting men to be women so women can be the man.
And a whole board dedicated to bashing men with the same process.
Goodbye. This place is disgusting.
There is nothing more fragile than a man asserting "masculinity" as a dominant reality 🤣🤣
@Will564 I know I brought it up,but I hate to disrail this honestly profitable conversation (mostly due to you) with the afore-mentioned man-bashing.
I would agree with everything @cuddlefaery said under their spoiler, and said much better than I could. It's the general idea that women are somehow responsible for how men feel. We've generally been taught to make sure of their comfort before our own - and that boils down to unequal labor at home and a culture of "clueless men" and weaponized incompetence. I should probably dig deeper into my feelings in this - but, as is becoming obvious - a lot of women are fed up with managing men's emotional lives. It's too much pressure but men just aren't doing the work themselves.
There is a couple on tik tok that I follow that explain it well - she's actually how I learned of cuddling in the first place.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLbeg1MP/
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLbe38qM/
I know that @Platypus0110 was banned, I don’t know him, I have no idea who he is/was.
And a whole board dedicated to bashing men
I have to second what he said though. Almost every single thread has some man bashing in it.
Now, someone at least one of you is going to try to tell me that I’m wrong and or, man bash me.
Ready, set, go…,,.
I'm a man, and I don't feel bashed.
@Morpheus I'm not going to try tell you that you're wrong for feeling the way you feel , or try to change your mind about it . What would be the point in that , your mind is already made and you are free to feel however you feel about whatever is placed in your life . I will tell you that I disagree , and don't feel the same way that you do . No need to bash you for it as I'm sure you're just as pleased with your worldview as I am of mine . I feel that we probably have different opinions of what man bashing is.
@SBG @cuddlefaery
Super long rambling post ahead. I have so many thoughts and don't know how to sum them up shortly. So anyone who doesn't care, just ignore all of this.
I always try to think of ways to have conversations like these in productive ways that don't just make everyone go in circles without listening or making any progress. One of my biggest traits, and some view it as a fault, is trying to have everyone be able to be heard and get along in some sense, even if they have disagreements...and some people say that'll never happen and you should just accept that some people have such different viewpoints you just need to let them be. I also like to look for practical solutions and making even some minimal kind of progress rather than simply saying how things should be.
So we've entered a pretty volatile topic that I for one love discussing, but I don't know how many others will, with the risk of the feeling of "the women are taking over the thread on masculinity, which is the one domain where men are still allowed to talk because women don't know what it's like to be men!"
And there's been such an emphasis on "strength" and "protecting" and things like that in this thread, that it feels like the idea of men listening to the input of women, especially when it comes to ideas of what men should be doing, is a sign of weakness to many men.
So I'm honestly just trying to figure out a way to actually discuss these things in a way that everyone can both listen and be heard. So I guess all I can do is ask anyone who can't be open to discussing and considering these ideas to just skip over this part of the thread. But oh well.
It sounds like the reality of the situation is that there has been a big upheaval in these man/woman gender dynamics, with women finally stepping up to get what they want and rightfully deserve in life. But it's such a shock to the system of men, that it ends up with nasty results that really neither men or women want. It's not like either wants there to be this big division between them, they both the other involved.
So I'm trying to think of practical ways for men to take into account what all of these women are saying in a way that just doesn't lead to strong emotions and anger.
I think a big part of the problem is that men have gotten used to being one way, and that's their norm, or their default. And when all of a sudden they're told that what they've always known is wrong, it feels like a lot of blame is being put on them for what they view as being themselves. And even if it's justified, it just never feels good to feel like you're being blamed for what you view as just being yourself. I think this is where a lot of the knee jerk, defensive reactions of feeling like "man bashing" is coming from.
And then, it just compounds the problem and makes it feel even worse when you're told that that emotional reaction is wrong too, with just a simple solution of "just be better, you can do it, it's not that hard!" Especially when there are a certain number of men who can/have done it.
So it creates this really weird dynamic, where women feel they've already done more than enough and putting the onus on men, whereas men aren't used to this kind of thing and it kind of creates an explosion of emotion, and it's almost like they're at an impasse, which puts us where we are today.
So I'm trying to figure out ways to kind of reframe the whole thing to make it work, even if it's not ideal for everyone. Because if we're all trying to go to the same place, I feel like we all have to do some things that we feel we shouldn't have to do...at least to make it practically work.
So what I turn to are some general philosophical ideas that are just beneficial for everyone. I think if men can kind of look at things from this angle and realize that it actually makes your life better to do these things, without sacrificing your own view of masculinity,
The first one is humility and sacrificing ego. This is always hard and never feels good...at first. You feel shame, and at first it feels like you're weak. But honestly, it feels so good to let go of the pressure of all of that. It feels so good to just be willing to learn from a different perspective, to feel empathy, to admit you don't know things, to admit you're wrong, to take the back seat. It honestly feels so freeing. Especially when you realize that the disrespect you feel is all in your head and people respect you more for doing that instead of less. Even in a cosmic sense, realizing the universal humanity in all of us, and that we're all miniscule in the universe and none is more important than the other....it just feels so nice to kind of put yourself below someone else and not let your pride take over. I don't know how to describe it, it just kind of removes so much natural negativity in your life.
The second one is the satisfaction of growth. Again, this always feels bad at first. It's so much easier to stay where you are. I know I'm very guilty of that myself. Change is hard. I hate change. But honestly, when you make the right changes, even if it's just a little bit at a time, in tiny steps...as uncomfortable as it feels, it ends up making you feel so much better.
There's so much in this thread about strength and protecting. Can't that strength be in stepping out of your comfort zone of not taking into account what a ton of women are thinking about men, even if it's uncomfortable. Can't that protecting be about putting someone else before yourself? Can't you show that strength through not protecting someone because you think they're weaker, but because you value them so much that you're willing to sacrifice your pride in order to view them as stronger than yourself?
Can't that sense of self sacrifice and doing something uncomfortable be a way to show strength in masculinity?
And can't we all just do this in a way that makes us feel good instead of bad? Can't we realize that we're all really on the same team and looking for the same thing, even if we face really unique challenges? Life is hard for all of us, I get it. It's not easy to think about this stuff with everything else. But can't we at least try to take a step back and listen and consider stuff and work on stuff even if it's hard?
And to women, like...I know you've already gone through so much stuff. But while I can't speak for other men, I know I for one don't have all of this figured out. It seems like some guys already do. But I know I don't. So my main thing is jus asking for patience and help and just acknowledging that we're trying to figure this out too. I know that's asking a lot when we've already asked for so much, but like....I don't think this is going to be something we can figure out and fix quickly. I know as a guy I don't know how. I just try to listen and learn the best I can.
Sorry for the long ramble, I just have a lot in my head about all of this stuff.
Man Bashing Definition:
Another thought this brings up: perhaps part of being a healthy emotional human being of any gender is knowing how to differentiate between constructive criticism and "bashing" (which I would define as unconstructive criticism intended to wound, not improve - after all the word itself refers to physical violence/blows/hitting).
Human beings with healthy emotional skill sets also know that while we cannot control our emotional reactions, we can control how we respond to them. If someone says something critical of people like us that is not overtly insulting, uncivil, degrading, etc. but we have a heightened emotional response (aka being triggered), the best thing to do is to disengage so that we can take the time to process our feelings, understand where they are coming from, and actively decide how we want to act on them rather than letting them drive our actions by instinct. Then we can return to the conversation better prepared to engage without feeling attacked, realizing that the generalized comment either wasn't about us, or if we did fit into the description it gave us something to think about.
All, I repeat - ALL -, humans have emotions. All genders, all cultures, all ages, all temperaments. We process them differently, display them differently, but we all still have them. Trying to claim that discussing emotional work and skills are "turning men into women" is a huge disservice to men, effectively negating half of their lived experience as we can only interpret what our senses tell us through the lenses of our emotional responses. We cannot separate them - our brains don't work that way - but we can learn to recognize the patterns and over time make changes in how we respond which in turns changes the patterns.
And I am not going to spoiler this one, because like I said - I'm an educator, not a martyr. I'll only go so far censoring myself for people's comfort, but if they don't want to meet me half way then all bets are off.
@Will564 I hope the thread can get back to men sharing their thoughts and experiences, but this is shared space and some things cannot be left unaddressed. I know you understand, and I appreciate you holding space for all 🤗
@cuddlefaery
Very good post.
I definitely agree. I do think there are some reasons why people may not respond positively to constructive criticism even if they do understand it to be constructive and not destructive.
If they disagree on a what a flaw/area of improvement is. If they feel like there isn't a problem and something doesn't need to be changed, and then are told that it is...they can feel misunderstood or judged. I think reaching a common agreement on the flaw is an important first step. And to me, that's where listening to how others feel about your actions is so important, especially those you value and care about.
If they feel like it was offered without being asked for. Kind of like the "unwanted advice" situation in the other thread we talked about. It doesn't apply as much on forums since we're actively reading what we choose to read and respond to, but I can still see how someone could feel
In general, I think people tend to respond more to praise/positivity than improvement. I don't know if the "research" is accurate, but I've heard things like that. I'm not justifying it or saying that it's what people SHOULD do. But I'm also a practical person that likes to look at the way things tend to go based on typical behavior. But in general, I think people value appreciation and support mixed in with critique, even if it feels like that's asking too much.
And like you're saying below, I think a big part of that is feeling like it's ok to have those emotions. It's just that we shouldn't let our initial emotions dictate all of our actions.
I hope the thread can get back to men sharing their thoughts and experiences, but this is shared space and some things cannot be left unaddressed. I know you understand, and I appreciate you holding space for all 🤗
Thank you for that. I definitely do value women's input on the topic, and I like hearing a lot of different perspectives and hashing them out.
I just don't know how to explain this idea to men in a simple way. If there's a topic about women and their experiences, men feel like they can't respond because they don't know what it's like to be a woman. If there's a topic about men, men feel like they have to listen to women telling them how they should be as men. On the surface like that, it's easy to feel like your own experiences and takes don't matter in either situation.
Is there any way to explain that simply, without saying something like "this feeling of not being heard is what women have always gone through and are still going through constantly every day, you're just having a small taste of it and you're not used to it so it feels like a lot."
Or is that the only way to explain it, and some men will get it and some won't?
That's why I've felt like I don't know how to navigate these sensitive topics with so many different strong opinions about it. I think my problem is I'm trying to please everyone and make everyone happy instead of just going with what feels right to me. Old habits can be hard to break.
Here's a question for you, @Will564 :
When women are talking about what they think healthy masculinity is, are they telling men how they should be or are they providing a perspective as those that take the brunt of unhealthy masculinity? I know not everyone believes that there is a power imbalance between the genders, but because men have run things for so long and set the standards, there is a big difference between impacts. Perhaps men shouldn't be afraid of joining in on women's conversations, but they need to keep the impact of that systemic history in mind. I'm sure most of us would love for everyone to have full equality, but in reality we are not there yet and until we are there has to be some recognition of imbalances in social capital.
"Should" is also a tricky word in English. It usually implies some sort of moral judgement or value, such that failure to do what one "should" do means one is lacking of moral character. I try to be really careful with where and when I use "should" vs other word choices because of this. For the most part, personally letting go of "should" has allowed me to let go of the weight of guilt and shame I've carried most of my life that was holding me back.
In general, I think people tend to respond more to praise/positivity than improvement.
See, this is where missing out on arts education is so critical. Learning the arts teaches us so many of the social-emotional skills, including how to handle criticism. It also promotes having a growth mindset instead of a fixed one, where we are more resilient to challenges because they teach us and offer creativite outlets for improvement rather than seeing them as potential for failure and stagnation.
I know not everyone believes that there is a power imbalance between the genders, but because men have run things for so long and set the standards, there is a big difference between impacts. Perhaps men shouldn't be afraid of joining in on women's conversations, but they need to keep the impact of that systemic history in mind. I'm sure most of us would love for everyone to have full equality, but in reality we are not there yet and until we are there has to be some recognition of imbalances in social capital.
Yeah, so I guess that means in order for there to be a conversation, there has to be at least some form of acceptance of this idea.
I really like that. It gives me a lot to think about. I too deal with some of those feelings, and I put the burden of “should” on myself a whole lot. I do make myself feel morally wrong or inferior in a number of cases. I’ll have to process this and come back to it. I think it could be really helpful for me.
When women are talking about what they think healthy masculinity is, are they telling men how they should be or are they providing a perspective as those that take the brunt of unhealthy masculinity?
This is related to the above idea of “should”, so I’ll have to put that part to the side for now.
I guess the thing is that it’s hard to distinguish between the two or feels like both are happening at the same time. But I suppose the idea is that it’s more helpful and productive to view it the second way.
For me so much of it boils down to listening to the feeling of those that you care about, because you care about them. That relationship piece can be pretty important because it gives you a sort of investment into the other person. Which may be partly why it can be hard to have these conversations with people online you don’t really know.
But, ultimately I think the thought is to think more about what the other person is feeling rather than taking their feelings as a judgment. And if you care about someone, then you care about their feelings, and how your actions affect their feelings.
The rest is probably more about me personally and not men/people in general, but maybe others can relate.
This is a little unrelated, but it reminds me of a coaching video I watched a while ago that was helpful to me. It talked about what happens when you overthink in a social situation, and you’re kind of stuck in your own head and thinking about everything about yourself in the situation…basically feeling the spotlight effect.
And the tool he mentioned was in those moments…focus on what other people are feeling. Make yourself think about them and what they’re saying instead of constantly thinking about your own feelings and mind.
What I liked about it so much is that often when we think about thinking too much about our own feelings, we think that this makes us selfish. It’s the idea of “you’re always making this about you!” when there’s no ill intent to do that. And that makes us feel worse and it’s kind of a downward spiral. But looking at it this way, as a tool to actually make ourselves feel better…was really helpful to me.
So I guess this whole thing is kind of similar to that. It’s about kind of getting out of your own head and taking in how someone you care about feels based on what you’re doing.
I guess what’s hard about it for me is finding the right balance. I know I can’t ignore my own feelings about things either. But I guess the idea is maybe there’s not enough balance, and there’s too much focus on my own sometimes instead of others. And maybe I need to figure out more what that right balance is and how to find it.
At least that’s the way it feels for me. Gives me some stuff to think about. Thanks for your insights about everything on this topic.
@Will564
I think the step you, and others, may be missing here is that when having these larger discussions online, you don't necessarily have to care about what the other person thinks because you care about them specifically - you listen and care because the topic is important to people you DO care about. You can empathize not only by putting yourself in other people's shoes, but by imagining people you love in their shoes. You're listening and caring because you want to learn in order to better understand for the people you care about.
Let's say for instance that your best friend is diagnosed a major mental health condition. You want to better understand what they are going through, so you engage in online discussions on mental health. You have zero experience with being treated for this condition or any others, you have not lived that experience, but you can learn about the experience through others. Mental healthcare and illness still carries a ton of stigma and it's really easy to slip up and accidentally say something offensive to those who experience mental illness. If someone criticizes you for making one of those offensive stigmatized comments, do you get defensive and feel attacked, double down? Or do you recognize that they are trying to help and educate you - the exact thing you came to that discussion to do? If they'd wanted to, they could have just shut you up by ignoring you or banning/blocking you, but instead they took the time and energy to try to help you understand. You don't have to be grateful, but you also don't have to take it as a personal attack any more than they had to choose whether or not your comment made in ignorance was a personal attack.
I guess what’s hard about it for me is finding the right balance. I know I can’t ignore my own feelings about things either.
I don't think the point is to ignore your own feelings. I know all too well the struggle of social anxiety and the negative thought downward spiral. And while yes, focusing on other's feelings can be one way out of that - it can also end up being a bit of a trap if you're not careful, especially if you already tend towards people pleasing as a coping mechanism. Rewriting my mental script and using extreme "what ifs" are some of the strategies I use to get out of that spiral, but there are several others.
I don't want to keep monopolizing this thread, so if you want we can keep talking about this in DM
I think we can say for sure that Healthy Masculinity is NOT what Chief's kicker Harrison Butker displayed in his commencement address. What a backwards, sexist, toxic mess he spewed.
Perhaps women should also choose the Chicago Bears, even if T. Swift is dating one of Butker's teammates.
@natickben ugh that was disgusting to watch…. And him choking back words just to say “homemaker”… imagine spending thousands as a woman to get a degree and start pushing forward in life and that dude is basically there saying “hey ladies, society lied to you. Your only purpose is making babies and pleasing your man”…. What a gross human…
Many women do value being wives and mothers, and have tremendous pride in their family and, especially, their children.
Some comments in this thread sound as if those women don't exist, or are disqualified from consideration.
How some people seem to harbor such a seething hostility towards motherhood.
No, Tom, nobody is saying they don't exist. What we are saying (correctly) is that a MAN speaking to a college graduation full of women and telling them that their true vocation is to serve men is an absolute disgusting mess-because it is.
@TxTom
I think you’re doing some projecting here. I haven’t seen anyone say anything negative about motherhood or a woman’s role as a wife or a mother or in her home. I would definitely not qualify any of it as seething hostility.
Instead, what people are saying is that’s not the ONLY role a woman has to have. The key thing is about the woman being able to choose what’s right for her and not have it be defined by someone else.
It seems like you’re categorizing women in some basic ways, like they have to be one or the other. It’s like you’re saying that a woman either has to be one who values being a wife and a mother OR they have to be one who instead puts a focus on something like a career or some other aspect of her life.
Some women value both. Some go through different phases in life where one they have more focus on one than another.
I actually think there’s been more focus on helping and supporting mothers in this thread than anything else. The idea of what men can do to make motherhood easier and better for women by improving as husbands and fathers.
What would be the point in that , your mind is already made and you are free to feel however you feel about whatever is placed in your life .
😁👍
@pmvines Exactly! When one's mind is made up and when one has decided to feel however they decide to feel strongly about something, it's best to accept what is.😊
Elsewhere on another site during a heated discussion, there was a person who "didn't like" an activity that I enjoy partaking in with trusting and consenting partners.😊 I commented my opinion on HOW said activity can be viewed as loving and endearing versus how this person viewed it as humiliating and degrading (which many users on said site do CHOOSE to view said activity in such a manner🙄😏). This person (in a very mockingly insulting manner) asks "How can such 'activity' be loving and endearing? Oh please explain..." Lol! 😄 Due to this person's recent negative comments of STRONGLY DISLIIKING said activity, I knew it was just mocking this person was looking for so I responded in kind😏😊:
There is no need to answer your question, because it is clear that your mind is up SO made up that MY attempt at sharing any form of "positive *enlightenment" would be a waste of typing energy not to mention pointless. Good day!
😁😉