@FunCartel - The planet isn't sentient, but other animals are. Extinction is a part of nature, but how many more species went extinct because of us? We are constantly destroying their natural habitats.
@FunCartel: So the implication was accidental. All right, I'll disregard it and answer the intended question.
Human life in general has no value to me personally. My life has value to me. @HogboblinZwei's life has value to me. Because of this, I value the lives of those humans whose work is necessary to support the infrastructure he and I depend onāsort of. I don't value them as individuals, just as working units.
I do not value the human species. I don't intend to keep it going. I'm not about to contribute any of my personal genetic information to the next generation.
Has this answered your question?
@Mike403 i am only talking about people. Most animals do not make value judgements. There is no right or wrong answer here. I am just picking your and @DaringSprinter ās brains since you both have absolute views on this. I do not. I waver on this as do many philosophers and the psychology community. I do believe in relative intrinsic value to a degree. I said in my original post that the answer āshouldā be yes that everyone has value but as humans we are flawed and most canāt see beyond what they think and believe. If we all valued others more this world would be a better place. That is what I truly believe and I am not a lover of organized religion.
I only mention organized religion because organized religion likes to stake claims to selflessness and forgiveness when these concepts exist outside of organized religion.
@FunCartel:
If we all valued others more this world would be a better place.
If we humans all valued other humans more, the world might be a better place for humans. For cows, sheep, fish, wolves, crows, dolphins, chimps, snails, spiders, lions, etc? Less certain.
@DaringSprinter Yes it does. Still too simplistic for my tastes but I am not going to say you are wrong. I just believe in the value of human evolution contrary to all evidence against it currently. And you are not alone in your thinking, and there really is no conclusive evidence one way or the other. Value is generally measured on a spectrum of sortsāpermanence vs. temporary, ethics vs. pragmatism, etc. I was just curious. My take is on an axis of are we trying to shed value or we trying search for value? The former would tend to be dismissive and bleak and the other more ameliorating to my mind.
@FunCartel: I'm sure human evolution is very valuable to people who appreciate being evolved and enjoy the thought of that continuing.
What gives a thing value to you is you. If you search for value in a dung heap, you'll find it.
@DaringSprinter If we truly valued ourselves then we would value the planet as we need nature and the planet to survive if humans were to survive. Now the one misconception put forward is we value humans if we value the perpetuation of humans. We can also value the quality of life of humans by having less humans.
@DaringSprinter So are you saying people are a dung heap? That is the correlation you insinuated.
Would you like to see more kindness? Empathy? That would be evolution in my mind. In another thread you justifiably railed at the people who never masked up where you worked. Wouldnāt that be nice if they evolved to value your life?
@FunCartel
If we truly valued ourselves then we would value the planet as we need nature and the planet to survive if humans were to survive.
Now you're No True Scotsmanning.
So are you saying people are a dung heap?
Thought I was talking about human evolution. Have you met the human back lately? How do you feel about the relative positions of the eating and breathing tubes? Enjoying the blind spots in the eyes and the hallucinations that cover for them?
@DaringSprinter I think I addressed that in my final sentence.
@FunCartel: Ah, missed the second edit.
Evolution is not a process of improvement. It's a process of "good enough to not die." I'd love to see more people who don't do things that hurt me survive while the others mostly die, but evolution does not guarantee this.
In my area, human evolution is favoring those with strong immune systems.
I don't feel inclined to value human evolution on account of it might have done something I would've liked (but didn't).
Preamble to UN declaration of human rights.
"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,"
" Article 1 All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
The equal value of human life before the law and before other members of the human race is an agreed upon, irreducible axiom. We as a species have recognized that this axiom helps create thing we value, such as justice peace and freedom.
@MCcuddles2
We as a species have recognized that this axiom helps create thing [sic] we value, such as just8ce [sic] peace and freedom.
Some of us have, sure. On paper.
You do know that "the UN" and "we as a species" are two different things, right?
@DaringSprinter You are referring to evolution in Darwinistic terms only. There are several theories and research being done on the interactions between the physical, thought and emotions particularly in the neuroscience and psychological fields. So yes we may be able to evolve as ābetterā human beings although I am also quite aware of the bioethical implications such as better by whose definition and how would we oversee such modifications. Specifically a friend of mine is researching this with a biotech company right now. So for better or worse, humans will evolve because of humans in the future. Depends on your viewpoint.
@FunCartel: Possible future human-guided evolution was not what I was talking about, no.
I havenāt read every comment but I have heard this before and I believe itās true. If I have 2 100 bills. And I hold them out for you to grab, one is dirty and one is clean, but they still have the same value, you probably wonāt look you would just grab one. They still spend the same way whether one is dirty or one is clean. I believe God gives us our value. Whether You tarnish it with bad chooses, it appears dirty to the world, you are still of great value too Him who you created youš. Everyone has a degree of filth, no one is really greater than the other we are all equal. I say the person laying in a nursing home bed is just as important to God as the person that runs the world, or the do-gooder. How can someone be so self righteous as to say that he is better than someone else. What if you were born in the circumstances that created the so called monster you point your fingered at? Would you fair any better. And if you survive trauma and you came through at the other end and you were healed and set free. By all means pray and love those who havenāt made it yet instead of pointing the finger and condemning them. Iād rather hang out with a criminal that knows heās rotten, then to hang out with a self-righteous person who thinks theyāre better than everyone else. Just sayingš¤£
Answering as someone with a disability, I often feel like I have to fight to be seen as valuable and valid as other people.
@Char0818 Iām so so sorry to hear that. Itās easy for me just to say that you do have value and I believe 100% you do. You may not be the dirty 100$ bill, but you may be the slightly ripped one. Still the same value in the eyes of God who created you. May you find your purpose in this life and know that what heās placed in you your talents, your outlook, your special personality to share, the way he made you. (And Iām not talking about the disability. I really honestly donāt believe the disabilities come from God. I hope that doesnāt stir any hard feelings with anybody. But I know that God is a good father, and any good father would not put a disability on their own child.)I didnāt mean to go there I just didnāt want you to blame God. But if you do blame him heās there to talk to, he understands šš¤
@kimberly77: So in your view value is granted by a god. Which god is this?
There have been a lot of them across human history, but I'm guessing you're referring to the one who "is a consuming fire," says to humans who've upset him, "if for a single moment I were to go up among you, I would consume you," and can't have any one of us sinful humans in his heaven unless our sins have been covered by blood.
(I ask because if the claim is that this god values us all the same no matter what, that's a bold claim!)
Thanks for leaving the question open to interpretation.
I do believe that all people have value. But at the risk of sounding Orwellian, some people have more value than others (to me). A few people mean the world to me. Most people I barely know. But I do know that our lives are largely defined by our interactions with others. Imagine living in isolation from birth to adulthood. I canāt.
So I may not be able to fully appreciate the value of everyone I meet. But I do recognize that they are a part of a community that I depend on for survival. And I hope that they do mean a lot to someone.
Even the worst among us are a part of that community. I canāt pretend that I am particularly concerned about their well being. But at the very least they are a reminder of what not to do. And also a reminder of what human beings can do to each other.
How should I know? I haven't met everybody.
In all seriousness: no. I do not believe that our species has intrinsic value. Nothing in nature has indicated an intrinsic value for humans. Or for anything.
Any judgement of value is a human thing. So, of course, many humans (throughout history) are going to spin a narrative that humans have innate value, as such a thought provides warm fuzzy feelings. Lots of people have even gone so far as to say that the celestial entity/concept that they believe in guarantees value. In that case, what history showsāwithout failāis that said value only belongs to the in-group. The same applies to the civilizations that we inhabit.
Hey everybody, quit clowning around.
"Criticizing ideas is NOT the same as criticizing the person"
This and:
THIS!
"One of the motivating forces in my life is curiosity, and the desire to learn. I've come to recognize that I learn more when I'm listening than I do when I'm talking."
One thing I've noticed and I've been guilty of this occasionally when I'm stoned or have a few fingers of whiskey in me, is that people have become married to their opions and the art of conversation is starting to be a lost idea because now people only converse via text, 140 characters, or bullet points. I'm finding this this trend of people just getting overly defensive when you disagree with them. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've been called an idiot when I was simply trying to just share ideas, but, when you actually talk to someone, this seems to all disappear. I love to actually talk to people, hear who they actually are and also, open up myself to their ideas. I think we're way more complex than we believe, so my perspectives often shift on things by just having a conversation with someone. You can't convey curiosity through text, it's just a battlesance and I think it's a huge inspiration to the polarization that's happening right now- you either are part of the team, or you're not and that's not going to get us anywhere.
@Saysoh: I think you're in the wrong thread. This is the "do all humans have value" thread, not the "are you being attacked" thread.
I was actually commenting to quotes in the original post. I'll quote them again for clarity:
"@HogboblinZwei @Babichev @DaringSprinter and others mentioned
Criticizing ideas is NOT the same as criticizing the person
@JoyfulHeart said
One of the motivating forces in my life is curiosity, and the desire to learn. I've come to recognize that I learn more when I'm listening than I do when I'm talking. As others have mentioned, there are many on this forum who welcome a healthy exchange of ideas"
In case you missed it in my comment, I'll quote myself:
" I love to actually talk to people, hear who they actually are and also, open up myself to their ideas."
I'm pretty sure that answers the question about value.
@Saysoh: Ah, okay. You were quoting a quote of a statement in the other thread. Got it.
I still don't see how you've addressed the question of whether all humans have value, though. It all seems to be about how to argue with others (for instance, without becoming overly defensive)... which is the topic of the other thread.
No, dude. The OP quoted them in THIS thread, so I commented on them.
If you don't think sharing ideas even when you disagree and open yourself up when someone shares something and it creates a shift in perspective within yourself isn't a value that we all possess, I don't know what to tell you. I answered the OP's question, but added context around the answer influenced by the quotes they put in the original post.
@Saysoh: ...I'll repeat myself slowly.
The original statement was in the other thread.
Someone quoted that original statement here.
You then quoted their quote... of a statement in the other thread.
You were quoting a quote of a statement in the other thread.
Got it now?
If you don't think sharing ideas even when you disagree and open yourself up when someone shares something and it creates a shift in perspective within yourself isn't a value that we all possess, I don't know what to tell you.
If you think this thread is about things humans valueārather than the value a human may have as a humanāthen I don't know what to tell you.
@DaringSprinter
"Do you believe ALL human beings have VALUE?"
Definition of, "value:"
"the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something."
Also:
"a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life."
Reference: www.dictionary.com
Again:
"If you don't think sharing ideas even when you disagree and open yourself up when someone shares something and it creates a shift in perspective within yourself isn't a value that we all possess, I don't know what to tell you."
@Saysoh: The context, man. Context is what tells us in what sense a word is being used. When someone asks "Do you believe all humans have value?" they are not asking whether you believe all humans have ideas about what is and isn't important.
How's your brain working at the moment? If its function is currently impaired, you might want to come back to this later.