This quote is NOT FROM THIS THREAD
Do you want to control someone else's mind, to change it to suit you? Or do you just want to speak your own mind, to put the information out there as clearly as possible?
Your approach will obviously vary depending on your goal. Are you trying to sell an idea, or to communicate it?
Thank you @MrPaul
That which can be learned from each personās experience is unique, as each person has a unique life path. Any individual can learn from any other individual. This is one of the functions of platforms like this forum. One may learn from oneās own experience, if a tendency for introspection is present
Goodness!! Thank you all for sharing the plethora of information. Those are some big reads. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/index.html WOW. Huge database.... Thank you for your contributions!!
At this point.... I think we can all say that there is plenty of information in these 4 pages if people want to delve into trying to figure out WHY they believe what they believe regarding where human beings come from. That's not what is on the table.
I would love love love TRULY love to set that aside for a minute and get back to the discussion because I am CRAZY interested to see people who believe very differently have similar perspectives. @JoyfulHeart mentioned that he was looking for commonalities if there are any and I am getting a sense that we have all shared one piece of consistent thought.....
I have seen all sides of this and I will say this again to see if people believe I'm getting a pulse on what is being said.
The common ground we all seem to share is that sentient beings (which seems to be an agreeable term assigned to us as human beings) attribute value to other human beings because of our CHOICE.
Please help me confirm or deny so I can have clarity. š
If there is any caring to be done, it is up to us to do it. ~BabiChev
@sillysassy I agree with the statement that it is each individualās choice to value others or not. It is my opinion that choosing to value others in an unselfish way (what can I do to serve others) represents one of at least two paths, the other being to value others in a selfish way (how can others serve me). We each choose one path or the other from time to time. I would suggest to be aware of your choices in this way and the feelings that you experience as a result. Use this inner knowledge to guide you.
@MrPaul I think that is a fabulous reminder to ask what we can do/offer to be of use for others.... and maybe.... especially in these kinds of times we can ask "how ARE others serving me?" so we can be mindful of how much people are doing for us (even if we aren't looking for ways for them to be useful to us....) Like people who have been helping us keep our electricity going FOR EV-ER! š I do think its a mindset a lot of the times that makes a shift in our thinking.... Hmmmmmm Thank you for "thoughts to ponder" in many ways!!
@MrPaul @sillysassy I love both of your last two comments. Thanks for sharing. Iām going to Implemented that.
As more and more land is cleared away to grow plant food we are destroying the natural habitat for animals and depleting the soil.This in fact spells disaster for the planet and I believe has been extremely bad for the climate.The animals were an important part in the overall lifecycle of the planet. Raising cattle in Africa and circulating the grazing has resulted in once barren farmland being revitalized.All human beings have value but human beings are a separate issue from how they behave.
I often see the perspective that humans and their industrialized society are harmful to the planet, something akin to a virus or cancer. But the way I see it, the earth has only recently (cosmically speaking) been home to organic life so even if we were to wipe it all out again we would only be returning it to the default state. But itās also highly unlikely that we could manage a total extinction, because ālife uhā¦ finds a wayā. Mass extinction events are not new to this world, and who are we to interfere in the natural cycle of death and rebirth? One could make the argument that any environmentalist effort stems more from a desire for self-preservation than any truly altruistic sentiment towards the other life-forms sharing the planet with us.
If you have any questions about anything Iāve posted, Iām certainly willing to discuss them via private message. However, since I donāt have the same invitation, in fact a disinvitation to speak privately with someone who wants to disagree with me, I will respond below. But I would like to respond.
@Daringsprinter, I am so glad you pointed out all the flaws in humanity. I agree with you on many things: I agree with you, radio-carbon dating is accurate in the thousands of years (tree-ring data, Dead Sea Scrolls, Egyptian tombs). I said it was not accurate in the millions of years. āEvolution happens every day.ā Thatās like saying climate changes every day. Yes. āBiochemistry is not chance.ā I agree with you. It was designed on purpose. āEvidence for evolution does not depend, even a little on observing macroevolution directly. There is a very great deal of other evidence.ā Sounds like you have faith in something you cannot see. Not quite what I expected from a ānon-believer.ā Your historical reference for the Egyptian Merneptah Stele is wonderful. The Egyptian Merneptah Stele is evidence that the nation of Israel was well established in the 13th century BCE. The only reason this is an issue is if you believe that Rameses was the Pharoah of the Exodus, and that the exodus occured in the 13th century BCE.. He was not. The Exodus occurred in the 15th century BCE. The name āRamesesā in Exodus 1:11 is an anachronism, just as is the name Rameses in Genesis 47:11. Rameses was Pharoah of neither Moses nor Joseph. The Pharoah of the exodus was a man named Tutimos, or Didymos in Greek. The record of the exodus was made by an Egyptian named Ipuwer in āthe admonitions of Ipuwer.ā Mount Sinai is the mountain now known as Jabal al-Laws in Saudi Arabia. Read Egyptian historian David Rohl. Read historical linguist Miles Jones. Letters have been written to Solomon, and the Kebra Negast is one such letter. Records of commerce between Solomon and Ahiram substantiate the records in Scripture. White supremacy, murder, violent crime are all terrible things. I agree. Underpaid and overworked is not good, If you want to have a values discussion from economics perspective, Iām open to it. The only issue I had is with what you said I said: I said morals derived from Darwin, not Wedekind and Milinski, would result in nihilism and the devaluation of others. Please read āDescent of Manā by Charles Darwin, if you want to see human value from Darwinās point of view. Darwin was my reference, as I stated before. You and I agree that people should have great value (unless you actually believe that killing is winning), regardless of our belief system: you believe the Golden Rule was derived from evolution. I believe it was derived from Scripture (Leviticus 19:18, Mattew 22:39, Matthew 7:12) and the fact that our views are so diverse from one another, and yet we can agree on this point, is great evidence for another thing: the natural law. C.S. Lewis did an amazing job discussing it āMere Christianityā and āThe Problem of Painā is also a wonderful book on reconciling human worth with our terrible life experiences. Thereās a lot of things that I have been taught from Scripture that I have found were not true. There are myriad of ideas out there, and no one has a monopoly on truth. I was sad when Ahmedali999 was blocked or banned or whatever for sharing from his holy book. But I am so glad that the mods had the clairvoyance to change their minds to let you share scripture. Maybe people will be encouraged to read more than just the numbered sound bites you shared. And maybe the mods will be more open to hosting discussions where people can share what they believe in an honest pursuit of truth. After all, these texts have been around for centuries, and to close our eyes to them completely, well, there must be a reason they have lasted so long. It is worth the pursuit to find out what it is.
@cookiecrumb I see you didn't follow any of the links. Not that it mattersāas @sillysassy, the original poster, pointed out:
...there is plenty of information in these 4 pages if people want to delve into trying to figure out WHY they believe what they believe regarding where human beings come from. That's not what is on the table.
I, too, would love love love TRULY love to set aside all the science denial and get back to the discussion. Which is, if you recall, not why you think all humans have value, but whether.
Plainly you do.
"I believe," your answer would seem to go, "that all humans are equally valuable to the supernatural being that created them (and this means we ought to act as though every human is equally valuable to every one of us)."
Fine. You've answered the question. No preaching is required of you, no attempts at religious recruiting required.
This is not the place.
I think that everything living, and not living, in this world has some value to someone or something. I think the deeper question is what do we value more?
@Romanticgiver83 Welcome to the Site!!! Hope you are enjoying lovely weather down there š
What an interesting question..... If you would be willing, it would be fun to hear a little more about your thoughts on this....
I think the deeper question is what do we value more?
This is a beautiful community and we are desperately trying to practice an idea presented in Zwei's thread presented about not being so attached to our ideas that we can't have mature/kind/sometimes heated/but not personally attacking kind of debate. There have been a lot of ideas going back and forth. I think everyone has taken a deep breath at this point. We haven't gotten the thread locked up yet so I have high hopes!!!
I figured out how to change the name of the link..... Its so cool to be able to do that! I feel very accomplished this morning!!! Wow. That was a LOT of exclamation points!!
I was thinking on what @Alan2018 and @Travismo were speaking to (and it was also mentioned by others previously in the thread) about collectively how much we are taking care of this earth that we live on/in.
No matter the reason why we are here or where we came from.... Leaving that aside for other discussions.... We do seem to struggle to find balance in the cycle of life that we are involved in. If we are to believe history and science books, we have seen a repeated thing happening throughout the course of our history.
I'm not trying to oversimplify anything.... and of course I am not an expert..... but there are many fantastic inventions and discoveries by brilliant people who can't necessarily predict the outcome of such a discovery.
Even in my own little farming life the land surrounding our house/farm was held for 100 years. In this day and age that is a long time for one house to be built and still standing. My mother in law spoke of days that clear tape was unavailable because it hadn't been invented. Imagine a world without clear scotch tape!!! I can't. I use it practically everyday. That one singular invention, from a banjo player, changed the course of my daily life. Not emotionally. This isn't a moral issue. Its just tape. But how has something so insignificant changed the world we live in? Who would have ever thought that a substance like plastic, amazing at the time, would be so problematic today? Certainly not the people who were excited to stop using metal and glass to store things let alone make a million things that were helpful.
What I am wondering..... is how we can still keep creating and inventing but not discount the possible negative impact to the world we are living in? IS it possible?
Maybe that is something that is out of balance.... Our desire to invent as opposed to the desire to have personal gain. If we are not all interested in the highest and best for everyone then can we ever find balance? Or is this back and forth something that has always been going on and will continue.... hmmmmmm (I'm processing out loud here)
If we find value in each other, even in a very small and limited amount, can we as a group, have a desire for the "highest and best interests for all involved"------------ IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE?????
Thank you for leading this discussion, @sillysassy ! I think it's possible. I'd love to share some thoughts on this.
I believe everyone has value (and a whole world inside, and divinity inside them). Have you ever been to a workshop, or seen a video of one, where the speaker calls someone up from the audience and does some facilitation with them, getting them to talk about their troubles, helping them feel heard and understood, and guiding them to connect with their own heart? Kyle Cease is one example of an inspirational speaker who does this, in front of an audience of hundreds. We get to witness this person's personal struggles, and see them humanized. The speaker's purpose is usually to make some universal point about the human experience or a helpful technique we could all use. What tends to strike me, though, is that the speaker (e.g. Kyle) could have chosen anyone. He's very good at connecting with and caring about strangers. He has faith in people. Like Mister Rogers, he doesn't have to stop and check whether person (kid or adult) he's talking to is actually likable or lovable, lest he say something incorrect! To generalize that, I would say it's not that we have a shortage of inherent lovability in this world, or people worth caring about, it's more about how much love or care is being given.
I can acknowledge that fact without personally caring about everyone. Am I as good at caring about, or even loving, strangers as people who are gifted at it? No. But I do try to assign everyone a basic level of respect. And really, my caring about or not caring about, or humanizing or not humanizing someone, is not what determines their worth. I'm not God. I think people who are good at caring about strangers are really important. It's a great quality of many professional cuddlers.
Now, some people have personality structures, ego, defenses, abusive behaviors, and so on that make it hard for most people to feel very sympathetic towards them. But because of the above point, this doesn't mean they don't have value, or aren't lovable. I also don't believe in comparing people's inherent worth, so I would not even say they have less value than someone else.
I choose these believes: 1) That I have inherent value, and part of my work on myself is to really own this value and not be ashamed and insecure just because of how I have sometimes been treated. 2) That everyone has this same inherent value and deserves to be humanized, whether or not I or anyone else is in a position to do so. 3) That it's not my job to personally attest the lovability of anyone or care about everyone in the world, though increasing my capacity to feel positively towards other people will surely make me happier in life. Just because I believe people have "equal" inherent worth doesn't mean I have to treat people the same as each other, as no two people occupy the same position in my life, and I am a human with various judgements, attitudes, resources, inclinations, and free will. For me, these practical beliefs actually lead me towards having a concept of a loving God, or Source, rather than the beliefs following from my religion (I was raised Jewish but had no real concept of God until recently). I can choose to work on being more "godly," if I want, at my own pace.
On the subject of invention, personal gain, and balance, it is a big topic, but yes, we are out of balance. We have these systems that have gotten out of control. I don't blame capitalism, or democracy, per se, but the specific configuration of things is amplifying the wrong dynamics. For example, it's one thing to have two car companies competing against each other, but we shouldn't have every last person in competition with every other person for things like food and shelter, when there is actually plenty to go around. We're playing this artificial game. The problem isn't invention, it's the way corporations just try to get bigger and bigger and make more and more money by whatever means they can, whether or not it's actually a good thing for society, and there aren't enough checks (e.g. from government). Our (American) culture also emphasizes material success and hustling, and there is this sense of hyper-individualism. Safety nets have been eroded. People barely have time to think about the greater good, let alone act. When you tune into what's good for "everyone," it's things like addressing climate change, for starters. Plastics and pesticides polluting the environment is another example of the industrial "machine" getting out of control, with not enough checks and balances. It's not actually that important or good for society for giant companies to make ever more money. Yet, these companies have bought and corrupted our politicians, and people's retirement money is invested in the stock market, and the game continues.
We're in a shift right now where people are increasingly aware of what's problematic about the status quo, though.
This is a tricky one. I have my own judgement, but any judgement I make will automatically put me in the arm of the balance which will give me value. There must be a reason why all major religious texts teach all humans have value - which means I best not trust my own thinking here.
Though I don't have much of my own to add here, I'll share this video for anyone to watch when they have 90 minutes to kill. Neil deGrasse Tyson touches on this subject much better than I ever could. The whole video is amazing, but one bit particularly relevant to this thread starts at around 1:26:00
@frankparker9 Thank you! And thank you for sharing your thoughts. I really resonated with this today...
it's not my job to personally attest the lovability of anyone or care about everyone in the world, though increasing my capacity to feel positively towards other people will surely make me happier in life.
We can relate to the part of them that makes them human and not have to attest to the lovability or likeability in order to do so. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.... If you would be willing to expand on that I would appreciate it. š
We're playing this artificial game.
and
there is this sense of hyper-individualism.
@CuddlesByDeep
any judgement I make will automatically put me in the arm of the balance which will give me value.
This was such an interesting comment. People have many different ideas and this statement makes me wonder how many people would be able to align with this. Interestingly enough I have come across a lot of people who aren't so self assured. They feel like "they" don't have as much value as this other person for a myriad of reasons. It has actually been MORE challenging finding people who believe they should have self worth.
Thank you so much for the video share. I'm going to have to watch it with a notepad because there's a lot of good stuff in there!!
I want to say it again and again... I'm so thankful for everyone willing to converse about this topic. Happy FriYAY!!!
@sillysassy I guess what Iām saying there is even if I donāt go through the process of humanizing someone (seeing them in a compassionate or relatable light), I know that I could, or if I couldnāt, someone else could. And even if I canāt love a certain person, someone could, even if itās a serial killer or something. I can imagine being Donald Trumpās therapist and coming to understand how he became the person he is. But it takes energy to do that. The amount of caring or empathy I can provide, as a human, is finite. Iād rather just acknowledge that everyone is a cute, lovable human in some Godās-eye view.
Yes. I do believe.
Thatās about the extent of my contribution. Lots of pages of words that I did not read most of. š
@sr182
lmao, this is the crux of this thread. bunch of presumably unemployed nerds posting dissertations that no one is reading.
@MCcuddles2 I don't understand why you would jump to such demeaning generalizations and name calling.
bunch of presumably unemployed nerds posting dissertations that no one is reading
Though, I really appreciated what you said earlier in the thread in quoting the article
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
I know we don't all agree on the ins and outs of WHY people have value, and I completely get it that not everyone has time to read or watch all of the information presented but I asked for everyone's opinions about the subject. I AM actually curious about that part. @sr182 was speaking his truth that he was weighing in on the subject but didn't take time to read everything. No worries! I wrote an essay or two myself in this thread and I'm certainly not unemployed.
@frankparker9 I really appreciate what you said about humanizing others.
humanizing someone-------seeing them in a compassionate or relatable light
This is actually a really great explanation and as I was reading it made me think of how I view people on here. In my mind, I know they are humans just like me.... but I SEE them and HEAR them as I wish to hear and see them. I don't always make them relatable, especially if they seem far removed from my walk of life. Hmmmmmmm.... I really like this. It makes it easier to CHOOSE to ACT in a manner that sees value in them. So many thoughts are swirling.
Thank you for the early Saturday insight!! š
Hehe - I'm glad I didn't post my dissertation then! This is a real story - when I asked my PhD advisor on how to explain a part of my experiment which failed and gave nonsense results - his advice was to not worry about it, because "no one will read the dissertation anyway, that copy is only for the library shelf. They will read the published journal article, maybe, but even that is doubtful."
So now there is one reason I need cuddles.
@sillysassy: This has been an intellectually stimulating thread so far. Lots to think about.
I still hold that value is subjectiveāyou can't say anything has value without specifying who it has value toābut if you assign value to value itself (for instance, treating a tree with respect because someone else loves it), it's easy to say every human is valuable to you because every human has value to someone.
That seems very beneficial to social cohesion.
bunch of presumably unemployed nerds posting dissertations that no one is reading.
But nah, I had to really save to afford this vacation, so I'm not bothered. Thanks for calling out the personal attacks, though. It's appreciated.
@sillysassy please don't take this personally. This is my general thought about internet forums. I realize I may be one of the stated nerds, and I'd personally like to spend less time doing this.
no i refuse to elaborate
There is no value in one who purposely hurts other people for their own personal gain .
Thank you @MCcuddles2 although..... In the forums, without tone and body language etc.... it is challenging to not "feel" like things are being meant as a slam or an attack... Thank you for your clarification and thank you for being willing to own your own things. š
@CuddlesByDeep hahahaha ššš
that copy is only for the library shelf
@DaringSprinter
I still hold that value is subjectiveāyou can't say anything has value without specifying who it has value to
I'm struggling with this and I'm trying to process as to why. I know we keep circling back to this. TO CREATE CLARITY FOR ANYONE READING THIS..... I am truly pondering how this affects me personally and I know I can be very hesitant to change my thinking. I KNOW that makes my opinions subjective and somewhat emotionally driven, so please oh please, do not assume I am trying to change anyone's mind here about their personal beliefs of the world. Instead, I am trying to LISTEN to ideas that are unfamiliar and decide if there is an argument that I can align with.
That being said.... If you can't have value without a specific someone assigning them value..... Then.... are you trying to say, if someone changes their mind about the person, they no longer have value? (TONE note.... I am speaking of a very personal matter and I do have some charged emotions about this, but I REALLY am trying to ask your perspective)
I am imagining someone alone in the world with a very minimal amount of people in their circle..... Their life partner has decided that they no longer have value to them personally and decides to align with someone else instead. This makes me FEEL like you are aligning/presenting an idea that if that were to happen they would then have to wait/search for ANOTHER someone to value them in order to BE valuable as a human. What if the only other person changes their mind about you?
---but if you assign value to value itself (for instance, treating a tree with respect because someone else loves it), it's easy to say every human is valuable to you because every human has value to someone.
Also, would you be willing to expound a little on this idea? I think I MAY know what you are referring to, but I'm a little slow sometimes.... My meaning might be VERY different than yours.
I AGREEEEEEEEE ššš This HAS been an intellectually stimulating thread so far!!!!! Lots to think about. (My emphasis added. I also am totally thrilled that we've managed to not get overheated and shut down like crazy! Thank you to all who are willing participants.
@sillysassy:
I'm struggling with this [the concept of value as relative] and I'm trying to process as to why.
It might help to think of a hundred dollar bill. It's worth a whole $100... to humans in a society that accepts US currency. Outside their evaluation, it's just a scrap of paper with ink in it.
On a deserted island, it might be valuable to a castaway as tinder. To a fish or a turtle, it's probably worth nothing.
In the same way, as a baby I may have been worth nothing to my mother (who didn't want a child), to my father (who didn't want me), to my neighbors (who didn't care whether I existed), and so onābut I was very valuable to myself (and myself only).
What a thing is worth depends on who's doing the valuation.
I am imagining someone alone in the world with a very minimal amount of people in their circle..... Their life partner has decided that they no longer have value to them personally and decides to align with someone else instead. This makes me FEEL like you are aligning/presenting an idea that if that were to happen they would then have to wait/search for ANOTHER someone to value them in order to BE valuable as a human.
Not at all. The ability to assign value to thingsāto decide what they're worth in your eyesāincludes the ability to assign value to yourself. What are you worth to you? What would you give in order to keep yourself in existence?
Also, would you be willing to expound a little on this idea [assigning value to value]?
Sure.
Let's go back to the hundred dollar bill. Say you're from a moon colony or something, and US currency isn't worth anything where you are. But! You know that some people on Earth would half kill themselves to get their hands on this piece of fancy paper. It means a great deal to them. They value it highly.
If you're the kind of person who values value, the paper will be valuable to you simply because someone else values it.
The ability to assign value to thingsāto decide what they're worth in your eyesāincludes the ability to assign value to yourself.
I was thinking along these lines too, after reading the recent post from @sillysassy
I agree with you.
In some cases, the ability to assign value to one's self requires the ability to reject another person's low appraisal of us, but it can be done.
Oh my goodness.... I am struggling as I respond to this.
@DaringSprinter and @JoyfulHeart Thank you so much for always sharing your truth. I appreciate you both on so many levels for so very many things.
As far as the idea of relating a humans worth to a piece of paper with ink. I can do that. Quickly and without any hesitation. My thinking becomes a little more problematic when thinking of SENTIENT beings as we've described them previously. Money... Who cares. Human beings. Yes. This.
@DaringSprinter That being said....
but I was very valuable to myself (and myself only).
How? How does this happen? How did YOU break through the noise of the people who were the guiding adults in your life?
(I have tears for the child Darren. I don't even know the right words to use for these adults of your youth. It is very challengingš¤Ø) Thank you for being so vulnerable as to share your example of your youth. As always..... If you don't want to expound on this I will say TYFTCOY!! In the cuddle world we are in, Taking Care of Yourself is a most valuable thing and I will honor that and respect you all the more for it. What is it that is said? "I trust your YES when you have the ability to choose to tell me NO in a safe space."
I feel like there are a great many people who never have/find the ability to see themselves as valuable human beings. I FEEL like there is a pot of gold on the other side of self hatred or devaluation. @JoyfulHeart I feel this as a very heartfelt statement. Other people blathering on and on about how much we aren't worth the ground we are standing on.... Can be a very destructive abusive message. Coming to a place where you can reject something ugly and untrue is a journey worth taking it seems. š
@sillysassy Your words brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.
Coming to a place where you can reject something ugly and untrue is a journey worth taking it seems.
I couldn't agree more.
How? How does this [being valuable only to yourself] happen? How did YOU break through the noise of the people who were the guiding adults in your life?
Well, value is the importance, worth, or usefulness of something, yeah?
I've always been pretty dang useful to me. Without me, in fact, I couldn't do anything at all. I'm very important to meāwithout me, I wouldn't even exist. My value to myself is tautological.
Knowing that I was unimportant, worthless, and useless to everyone else didn't change the value I had to me. It couldn't. That's not how value works.
Does knowing no one else values your favorite stuffed animal, say, make it worth less to you?
Edit:
Also, valuing something isn't the same as loving it. You can value your only pair of shoes very highlyābecause without them you'd be barefoot on dirt, rocks, and the occasional tiny cactusāwhile still hating the way they crush your feet and wishing you had shoes that actually fit.
(I wore those shoes for a long time. They were brown. Hiking trips sucked.)
@sillysassy thanks for accepting my humble apology. I should probably not have made that post, even though it was self depreciative more than anything.
Getting back on topic.
I had earlier stated the UN declaration of human rights. This is something near and dear to my heart.
The UN declaration is the closest we have come as a species to stating that humans have dignity and value and it must be respected.
I think ultimately the universe is vast and we are insignificant. We are finite. The universe is infinite.
We are simply recycled stardust. Literally. For a blink of an eye, or a hundred human years, we borrow molecules such as carbon and hydrogen, that were forged in the belly of a star a billion years ago. We are temporary and insignificant.
But, as humans we can choose to assign value to each other. Centuries of war have shown that if we choose to see each other as valuable and in possession of an unalienable dignity, than that can create the foundation of a world that is pleasant for most of us.
So, to summarize. The universe has no intrinsic value for human life. We have to choose to assign value, because that is the only way to create a better world. Hence the UN declaration of human rights.