@Libra0 hmm it’s crickets in here now, hope he doesn’t self harm.
He never got "bullied", people just pushed back on the narrarive he was spreading. Noone is required to be patient with acts of bigotry, unintentional or otherwise. Particularly on a web site meant to address touch starvation, dont we all know what it feels like to be excluded? Are we really going to allow the spread of propaganda that marginalizes members of our community, just to protect the feelings of those spreading it? That video was created to bully trans people, so its pretty wild to claim he was being bullied.
@supadupa That is an incredibly manipulative thing to say. He never said anything about self-harm, you are just attempting to shut down valid criticism.
An article about a teacher who wouldn’t meow at a kid who got fired for not acting the way the school wnat then tknis an obvious attack on tn people nd bigoted. Like I said if you wanna see outrage you will and that’s not manipulative? Anyone I’m done with this thread and the bullies on here.
@supadupa i believe youre being wilfully obtuse. Plausible deniability is absolutely a primary strategy bigotry uses to spread itself, and at least for the creator of the video, we're not buying it. Its a dog whistle, an old one at that.
I’m honestly horrified at the turn this thread took. What started as someone bringing attention to an absurd news story quickly devolved into personal attacks against the poster. Letting him know it was obviously a false story meant to mock trans people was fine, plenty of people did so respectfully before someone suddenly made the accusation that the OP himself was transphobic for making this thread. After an outpouring of vitriolic language directed at him, I’m not surprised he decided to abandon the site altogether. And this isn’t an unusual occurrence, I’ve witnessed the same handful of accounts in a number of threads using similarly aggressive language against people for having a difference of opinion or belief. There’s been a marked increase in toxicity in these forums in recent months, and it’s quite disheartening.
@Travismo Well you can be horrified all you want, but what youre claiming is not reality. Noone was being vitriolic towards him (your words) until he continuously ignored the criticism, doubled down, and then started making sarcastic remarks. Actually, he was shown quite a bit of patience until he started being dismissive and sarcastic. Transphobia is unacceptable, pure and simple. We are allowed to say something about it, despite attempts to shame us for it.
Yikes. So much drama.
It's really too bad that people can't always read between the lines or aren't able to do so rapidly.
What I saw was someone posting something they found ridiculous. Perhaps part of that was the under current of marginalization in there. I don't think he picked up on that and I don't think he posted it to rile people up.
Additionally, the "but I meant ___" isn't doubling down. It's an external processing method that many use to explain and clarify. Unfortunately it typically doesn't work well, especially in a forum.
Also, I believe they refer to it as a spectrum because it is. On top of the variations in cognition, social acuity, etc. there are just as many variations in our backgrounds.
Quite often those who experience misplaced feelings of victimization are those who have suffered greatly and their responses are ingrained as it's what worked in the past and something they were receiving triggered the feelings associated with their prior trauma.
Consider that perhaps someone in a position of power would hover over you, lecture you, put you down, make you feel worthless and trapped. Throw a beating or two in there. It's not hard to imagine how some experiences may make some stronger, while in others can cause a cyclical pattern of ineffective behavior.
I'm not saying it's what the OP has going on, because I don't know. But could be...
Anyway, fight or flight aren't the only reactions, but most know the phrase. Deflection and humor are common approaches when feeling backed into a corner. Whatever will work to divert attention and survive the moment.
You can yell until you're blue in the face and it won't change anything if the one you're yelling at is trying to get away. Because no matter what you say, things become black and white and there are two choices - Run or Stay. And if you aren't clearly agreeing with 'run' then you may as well be saying "stay and take it".
A bit disjointed but I'm wishing there had been a bit more empathy and kindness. Just because someone doesn't get it, doesn't mean put downs, sarcasm, or any other aggressive feedback is necessary.
He didn't get it. Okay, so take it as a chance to grow your ways of explaining. When words start to fail, perhaps you could try finding or creating a graphic that might help make it more clear... maybe... I mean would it really be any more of a hassle to just try it rather than escalating things??
Found while looking for an image...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.advocate.com/politics/2021/4/09/sponsor-arkansas-anti-trans-bill-says-kids-might-identify-cats?amp
Just, wow.
@quixotic_life exactly right. If we want to reduce the amount of transphobia in the world, we have to educate rather than berate. Yelling that someone is evil doesn’t help anyone. Explaining to them that what they said/did was offensive might help them avoid such mistakes in the future. Or they might just be transphobic, but you don’t know until you try.
I see more relentless berating in the forum than anything else lately. Dissertation after dissertation. Thesis: I'm right and here's how I'm going to beat you into submission with pages upon pages of my wordy words.
Too lazy to read all of this but I should definitely take over that teachers job since I randomly make meowing noises anyway.
Aaaand Mike403 is gone.
Congratulations?
It's a shame to see so many threads recently going down in flames because of disagreements spiralling out of control. Know there's a lot of disagreement here as well regarding what constitutes a personal attack but regardless of if there were or weren't any here I hope we can agree that certain things were taken too far and certain conclusions might have been jumped to too hastily.
@Mike403 was a paying customer for this site.
He was forced out because of certain(two) individuals. He is not the first person forced out by these individuals.
I imagine if the site keeps losing paying customers due to two individuals, the site will eventually have to take action.
But what do I know.
Noone yelled that anyone is evil, yall are absolutely mischarcterizing the interaction. Yall are just putting words on peoples mouths. People were pretty patient about it considering we're responding to an act of flagrant, if accidental (im being real generous here), transphobia. He was told he shared a dog whistle, and he responded with dismissal and making his own dog whistle. He wasnt backed into a corner, he put himself in the corner and refused to come out when asked (at least until the very end in a very unconvincing way, having a trans friend or relative is not a magic get-out-of-transphobia card) He had people explain to him, very thoroughly, why what he was doing was offensive, he didnt want to accept that and then ragequit the website. People actually arent required to be nice about bigotry, people gave him the benefit of the doubt anyways. How about we show the same compassion and understanding to the trans memebrs of our community that were harmed by that? Trans people deserve to know they will be passionately advocated for and defended in our community. And thats more important to me.
@MCcuddles2 He was not "forced" out by any means. That is a wilfull falsehood. But i absolutely see through what youre trying to do here. Youre trying to make people afraid to speak out, and are hoping the mods will start deleting accounts.
Oh man. I can force people to stop using the site...just by questioning them or pointing out their ridiculousness on the forum?
My power is limitless. Limitless!
Hey, now—let's not discount the possibility that he left to think about stuff.
Realizing that you have bad beliefs can be painful. I remember the time I was first introduced to the concept of gender not as a synonym for sex, but as a social role.
I realized I was wrong. That I had been wrong for years. And that I'd hurt people because of it.
Going away and doing a deep dive into the concept of gender and not coming out until you're sure you understand it: that's a very autistic thing! (Frankly, I'm not sure I've ever left the research zone myself, not since realizing how wrong I was.)
I imagine the pain would be even worse if I'd doubled down on the "identifies as" accusation I accidentally posted by creating two variations myself.
That's embarrassing.
But it doesn't mean he rage quit, nor that he was driven off, nor even that he won't be back once he's figured things out.
This might seem unlikely. But who knows?
Reported, reviewed, and removed. @HogboblinZwei . [-Sid]
@HogboblinZwei
Ah, yes... right. I tend to forget the neurotypical tendency towards black-and-white thinking. Even though I see it so often online.
Edit:
But (forgive me, I'm still waking up) surely both those options could be true at once? The false dichotomy I think I'm seeing people choose between here is this:
and
@DaringSprinter
Again, this is Cuddle Comfort.
A man was figuratively killed here. It was the digital equivalent of a simpleton being led into an alley by a couple of vicious monsters and beaten to death. For the sheer thrill of it.
This is the narrative that will be accepted and shared by others whenever it suits their needs. There is no room for rational thought. There is only room for raw, shrieking emotions.
A man was murdered here.
So no false dichotomy, even? Only option one? Geez. Guess I'll be over here playing with my legos by myself.
• Not meaning to be transphobic doesn't give you a free pass.
• It is perfectly possible to attack transphobia without attacking the people who're saying the transphobic things.
• It's difficult to do that, and understandable (alack) when people don't bother.
• It's probably ruder to attack an entire group of people unprovoked (whether you meant to or not) than to attack a single person who's attacking a load of others (even if he didn't mean to).
No just people pointing out to an guy with aspergers the complex situation of how an article about how a kid pretending to be cat is actually an attack on trans identity; but not having the restraint and empathy to refrain from using their wit and superior skills of articulation to be condescending towards said person who mentioned that they’re autistic and therefore most likely won’t understand sarcasm and/or condescension (there is a spectrum)
I mean… I actually appreciate the effort at nuance and articulation… and there are points I agree with… but it’s seems like there’s a bit much draw to be witty vs understanding and that is counterproductive.
The tone does not give me the feeling of inclusiveness and building bridges of understanding…
The narrative just mentioned is probably how it will be remembered but mostly because being witty got prioritized over trying to understand another person. That’s always gonna come across as bullying regardless of how a conversation got started.
I cringed at the Batman comment too but the condescension picked up After mike mentioned he had aspergers and didn’t understand the attack when even his own condition was being made fun of.
I just can’t reiterate enough that being condescending is never going to promote communication and inclusiveness….
We’re all struggling to understand each other so it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt and to try and be gracious to one another.
@quixotic_life
Additionally, the "but I meant ___" isn't doubling down.
No, it's not. I think you might've missed the actual doubling down!
• Mike posted a link to a standard transphobic attack: "This is what 'identifying as' something you're physically not looks like, and it's stupid and harmful."
• Other people pointed out that what he'd linked to was a transphobic attack (and a lie).
• Whereupon he posted his own transphobic attack: "My cat looks kind of like a duck so I'm saying 'my cat identifies as a duck' (and does that make the cat a duck? hahaha, no!)"
That's the doubling down.
And then, when people pointed out that this "joke" was transphobic as well, and explained that turning "identify as" into a joke is a transphobic dog whistle... he did it again. "Batman identifies as a bat," remember?
How, you may wonder, is it possible for someone to attack trans people repeatedly like this without meaning to?
And the answer is: "Yeah, it's unlikely, but it can happen. All you've got to do is be really, really out of touch, and bam! There you are, genuinely confused as to why anyone would be hurt by the repeated insistence that identifying as something isn't the same as actually being it.
Because it isn't!
A person can identify as something they're not—like a cat, or a Black person, or an attack helicopter. And when they do, it's ridiculous and funny and possibly tragic.
The problem is all those people out there screaming that being a man or a woman is as physical a thing as being a cat, and beating everyone else over the head with "isn't it ridiculous and tragic when people identify as something they're not" when that isn't happening. Sure, some folks are out there genuinely convinced that they're parrots—but we all know that's not who the people making these attacks are talking about!
...Well, not "we all," I guess. If you're really, really out of touch....
And that's where Mike might be. Who knows? It's not likely. But it is possible. After all, I've been there.
@me2
Asperger's Syndrome isn't an official diagnosis anymore, but if it were, that's the label I would've been given (or so the experts who diagnosed me said).
I saw no mockery of autism in this thread.
Personally, I felt uplifted by the acknowledgement that being autistic doesn't remove my ability to read and understand, listen to others, take responsibility for the things I say and do, etc.
Using disability as a "Get out of jail free" card comes at a price: it means people see you as incompetent, undeveloped, unintelligent.
I prefer to keep whatever human dignity I have, and admit that yes, I can do better.
I wasn't attacking Mike's condition. I was critiquing his using a condition to deflect accountability.
I dunno. I've known an autistic person for eleven years—and have been in a relationship with them. I've been around an autistic kid and their family. I've been around an autistic teenager and their family. I can't recall ever hearing anyone telling an autistic person "Hey! Use your condition as a shield!"
So, please excuse me if I didn't treat Mike403 like a moronic child. I don't hear/read "autism" and think to myself "Time to treat someone like they're incredibly fragile!"
I'm going to make a small observation.
Sarcasm can be a useful communication tool when used judiciously. I think its likelihood of accomplishing anything worthwhile is lower when it is delivered in writing. While I understand it, and sometimes use it, I find it to be more work to parse a person's intent when I encounter sarcasm on a forum. It is possible that others also find this true, and if someone finds themselves in an awkward spot in an online forum, they may feel attacked even when that is not the intent. A suggestion I have is this: If we are trying to educate or enlighten someone, can we consider the possibility that being straightforward might be a more effective approach?
I'm going to make a small confession.
Thanks to my upbringing, I have trouble being as bluntly straightforward as I'd like. So sometimes I just point someone who does have that gift at a thing that bothers me, and let go the leash.
@DaringSprinter Thank you for your reply. I've had similar difficulty. I recognize that certain conditions in our childhood and youth can teach us that a direct approach is dangerous.
I'm not going to pretend that I've fully learned directness, and I acknowledge myself as a legitimate target of my own suggestion in the previous post.
I appreciate those last responses. I just want to point out some things. One that there are degrees of autism and thus degrees that people can understand social cues. I have no idea the details of anyone’s condition. I have worked with people however that I know would not be able to understand a lot of the language and points being made. Also that @JoyfulHeart is adding some good clarity to my main point about being sarcastic and/or condescending. Writing communication can be really easily misunderstood. It’s part of the reason people have a tendency to get so nasty on social media. I’ve read in one of Temple Grandins books that cats don’t have the same ability to apologize as dogs do and that’s one of the reasons the cat fights are more likely to escalate. I feel like it’s similar to people writing each other online…. Also that I Do agree with making space safe for trans people (who do deal with a lot of hate in general) as well as everybody else. You all are right to have this as a goal. The critique is more on the effectiveness of tone and word choice. Some of you may even be coming off more sarcastic and condescending than you realize and/or intend.