So the subject of this disagreement between @davebutton and @AspinL is communication.
@davebutton you felt hurt, disappointed,confused, resentful. From the tone and content of your thread, it sounds like being assertive, concrete, consistent, honest and taking initiative in communication is very important to you. Also feedback is something you value especially as it relates to helping you learn about others. And in posting this thread you're seeking an understanding of ways you may not be giving others the sensitivity that they need you to. So you're open to learning new better ways of interacting with others who may not be as assertive as you would like or able to express their wants and needs in ways you can understand and relate to. And in reaching out to @AspinL you were seeking feedback from her about the experience between you ;perhaps get some validation that somewhat matched what you felt with her. While you seem to feel remorse and disappointment for not being able to meet her expectations you also felt blindsided. And so you were hoping to have some understanding around how the communication between you affected your interaction. Particularly as it relates to how it happens in messaging and in person conversations. Did I get that right?
However, you lost control because of your hurt and frustration. You took it out on her by insulting, demeaning and mischaracterising her. That was neither cool nor fair to her nor you.
You understood her shyness and reticence. You observed her unwillingness to challenge your suggestions and initiate ideas yet express her feelings of discomfort. Interpreted them as double messaging, bad communication in person and generally poor treatment of you. Yet from what she said in her statement and the texts between you it also sounds like you misread a lot of her actions. Her reticence being her attempt to accommodate you and your change of plans.
Going forward try not to be so rigid in what you want. You will continue to meet many women on here who may be just as shy and cautious as she is. Who may not be as assertive as you're comfortable with. And for whom cuddling is a new experience. Do try to be more sensitive. When she told you she wasn't comfortable driving around with you and just wanted to sit and share space in the park you could have just gone with it. Even if she didn't say it clearly. Listen. Go with her flow. See where it goes. When she became reticent with you be reticent with her ,watch her eyes and face. Be sensitive. Think her and what she's feeling first. Was she physically comfortable? Was my tone blowing her off and putting her down? How does she feel? Not just how do I feel and what I want. But what do I want her to feel as well. That's what you missed. Yes your ego felt bruised. Because like every guy you really wanted her to feel good. But you blew it then felt deeply bewildered by it. And you allowed your bewildered feelings to cause you to insult and belittle her. And you felt bad. That's why you started this post. I am not going to judge you because you're human. But you will learn from this experience. Be more open and sensitive to the female you're cuddling. Perhaps spend more time engaging conversations with her feelings about cuddling what you both want to feel and willing to do to make that happen. Listen pay attention. All the very best to you.
@AspinL you felt upset, disappointed, tense, disrespected and misunderstood. Being accommodating and safe are very important to you. You are seeking peaceful understanding and respect in how communication happens. While you speak up for yourself you also want fair and nonconfrontational conversation. You seek that flexibility and compromise in communication that makes you feel safe. Did I get that right?
Hence in response to @davebutton's post you are seeking to be understood in the context of his reaction to your feedback to the cuddle experiences between you. Some fairness in the way you were characterized and an understanding of your side of the experience as you felt it. You felt unfairly characterized ,intimidated and unsafe. You're also aware of how your communication style makes you appear to others and is willing to keep working to improve that.
Hence in responding to @davebutton's request for feedback regarding the experience you wanted him to understand how his pushy tone and behavior made you feel. That you did not intend to frustrate or hurt his feelings. Rather to explain your reticence in the park and your seemingly inconsistent communication with him as your trying to avoid any confrontation with him. Because his pushy and insistent tone to get what he wanted made you feel apprehensive and unsafe with him. Your explanation in your post of his profile picture not matching in person also made you skeptical of his character. As did his sudden change in plan to drive you around in an unfamiliar environment. You didn't feel confident enough to speak up as clearly as you could about it because you felt uncomfortable with his general tone and demeanor. So you let it slide to appease him. As he insisted on bringing it up to vent his own feelings you felt shut down by his intensity. So you ended the communication. Did I get that right?
You respected his feelings enough to walk away. Being someone who doesn't like confrontation you felt compelled by his post to respond. Even though he never mentioned you. You felt mischaracterized by his account of the experience. You reached out to the mods and made your case and did as advised calling him on his truth. You published extracts from your conversations to give a fuller richer context of what transpired between you which paints a very different picture from the one he described.
It is commendable how you handled the situation that you felt dragged into. You competently explained and defended yourself in a way that makes you appear intelligent beyond your years.
However, in communicating with men on this site you have to be very clear how and what you communicate. I'm not judging you here. Communication as you are well aware is a two way street. While it is nice to be accommodating to others it can cause all kinds of missed cues. Because our body language don't lie. If we're uncomfortable with a situation our bodies will show regardless of what we say out of our mouths. Hence, when you thought you were accommodating him by going along with moving from cuddling in the park to driving around town your tense body language and silence made him feel awkward. At some point you could have said to him what you described in your post about how you were feeling. Perhaps as you were about to part ways. Not excusing his pushy insensitive behavior. Just trying to show you how you might have approached that situation differently. The outcome may still have been the same. Who knows. But it never hurts to speak up when it matters. No blame or judgement
There are always lessons to be learned. From what you said you are open to learning and are working on communicating better.
Also be very clear about what you want from a cuddle experience: what and how you want to feel before, during and after. Lots of men on here don't understand boundaries very well and you have to make it crystal clear for them what those boundaries are. Every man is very different. Pay attention to what he says and doesn't say. And if you feel those boundaries crossed speak up and walk away if necessary.Stand on your boundaries and communicate clearly and consistently. No one is perfect. Keep working on better communication. Keep being you. All the very best to you.
I'd say that if a male is getting a free cuddle from a female, they have to put up with a change of mind during the session ; else females won't meet, unless they are committed to doing everything they suggested at the outset.
If the messages from a female are unclear or confusing during a session, males have to err on the side of doing least ; and be ready to be criticised for it.
Males might be unhappy that female pros charge a fee for a cuddle ; but we should be grateful that there are females who will cuddle for a fee.
Free cuddling is just a different kind of gift that requires a different investment of time and effort. Fee paying cuddling at the very least is essentially a business transaction. So the dynamics will always be very different.
Unfortunately lots of males are conditioned by experience to relate better to the latter. It's much easier to engage a female with a structured arrangement for a fee who based on her professional stature already has a list of do's and do'nts. That sets the stage for established boundaries that the male can either accept or take his interest elsewhere.
With free cuddling there is a lot more give and take. Many women are unclear themselves as to what they want to feel, what to expect, how to express all that. Many are in relationships with spouses who are not supportive of their need to seek this kind of physical affection from strangers. Many are young and still living with their parents and families and are not able to talk about cuddling as an activity they pursue. It's so many different variables. So many.
And that's only from the free cuddling female perspectives.
There's also many men both young and older who are actually in complicated and difficult situations too. Some in long term relationships. Others dealing with deep unresolved hurt from previous relationships or encounters with others. Some with personal issues they are actively working on or seeking to numb through cuddling.
Sometimes the emotional distance of fee charging pros can help. I say emotional distance in reference to to the act of money changing hands. Not to make any statement about or characterization of pro female Cuddlers. Rather the detachment that offering a fee paying service naturally creates between client and professional. Many pros are quite helpful to men who need some investment of conversation and empathy. Those who excel at that are usually highly recommended in private conversations. Just as there are free cuddling females here who offer the same quality of interaction for such men. They're just very few in numbers.
But not always. Pro Cuddlers are neither trained psychiatrists not mental health professionals. And if there are males who need such should really seek it in the appropriate place from the appropriate person.
So it is all a matter of approach and perspective.
Some males' personalities and demeanor perhaps require them to cuddle pros only. The assertiveness some are seeking might only consistently come from females who are in it to win and keep clients and are willing to provide great customer service in a win -win way. Who nonetheless care about their clients and the relationships they have with them. So are willing to negotiate on mutually beneficial terms that respects each party's needs and boundaries.
Others not so much.
One should also not forget that there are different levels of cuddling experience and interpersonal relations skills among different cuddlers on here. It is each person's responsibility to be aware of how that affects the quality and kind of communication between people. And to adjust or adapt accordingly.
Some of us can. Others of us can't. Some of us won't. And that's life!
"I'm not even sure why, I guess because her pride is more important than her safety, and enjoys raking people over the coals, probably like she did to her best friend/mother figure, lying, and that's why she also got pissed at her." really making it harder and harder to relate to you or be sympathetic towards you OP.
@davebutton stop defending your behavior. Change it . Gain insight into how your actions and behaviors impact others . You are still defending being a hurtful spiteful bully all because something did not go your way . A vicious display of entitlement .
And you are still attempting to portray yourself as a victim and talking about how she shouldn't have been able to see or reply to it . I am glad that she was able to and that you have been exposed for what you are . It is after all only fair that you don't get to write her narrative of what happened.
And I still can't believe that you are behaving this way about someone who you could actually be a father to . Again she's 19 you are 42 . Be a grown up not a bully to someone who is young enough to be your child!!!
@pmvines No mixed messages there. 👍
@davebutton "Please moderators, I request for the safety and sanity of the community, do not let people we've blocked see our threads or reply to them. That just allows stalking and harassing and doxxing."
Also allows people being defamed to tell the real story. Might as well put in a request to also change the old expression to "there's one side to every story". Who keeps track of expressions? Anyone have their contact info?
Totally agree Ace
Whoa, just had a pet detective flashback! lol
I saw this thread at the beginning and didn’t think much of it, I come back a couple of days later and there’s a ton of responses and a lot more to the story. First of all the guy deserved to be called out and judged by all the members that did call him out, he is a bully, an A hole and the poster boy for everything that is wrong with CC guys not knowing how to treat women members. All the usual complaints I always hear : “women don’t return messages” “a simple no thank you would be nice” etc this is the reason women sometimes opt for just not responding, because A holes like Dave become abusive and as soon as they feel slighted in the least they lash out, grow up!! You’re a man and being 42 hasn’t taught you how to treat a lady yet and in this case a young 19 year old which to me is infuriating. I am sure there are a lot of of good guys in CC and hopefully they can erase the bad impression Dave has created with his behavior. So let’s be nice guys and please remember the old saying, if you have nothing nice to say don’t say anything at all.
The best way to prevent someone seeing or replying to one's writings, is to write them in a place where they are unlikely to be found by those people. - A private diary usually works.
Any public statement must be open to dispute.
David,
I would like to point out a few things. When we were talking, you suggested sharing the same space to get to know each other and just relaxing to cuddle. I agreed. I had not agreed to driving around. The reason why I didn't say no, again, was because I was so physically uncomfortable that I felt as if i were to attempt to say no, I would be left without a way to get back to my place. You are not who you appear to be in your profile picture, and its incredibly upsetting. I do not think it is appropriate for you to continue to go after me in a rude manner. We had agreed on what we would do prior, and that did not happen, that is why I was disappointed. I dont know how else to explain to you. When I blocked you it was because of your harsh response. I do not like being talked to that way, and do not think it is a healthy way to speak to someone. In addition bringing up something you PUSHED for, is incredibly rude. You pushed me to speak about something I mentioned i didn't really want to talk about. I said I don't think it really matters because I did not want to talk about it. Therefore differing and pointing out that no, I don't want to talk about it. I was 'happy' with your suggestions again, because you had driven an hour, and it seemed as though you were a nice gentleman. It appears I may have been wrong.
I do not understand why you have a problem with me. I just dont. I cannot change the way you feel, and more than likely won't attempt because you are your own person and entitled to your own opinion. The text I had recieved was AFTER I blocked you on kik. I had a situation with the particular person you refer to in my life that was abusive. It was very abusive. I do not like to admit that, because its hard to say, and due to situations that happened my brain is hardwired to try to 'please' the other person to avoid being yelled at. I did not lie to you. I did not coarse you or swear at you, guilt trip you, or force you into anything Mr. David.
Your experience has ruined my taste for opening up to anyone anytime soon, and that is quite unfortunate in my opinion. You asking ME to 'not do this to others' does not make sense. I had opted to be truthful with you, and communicate my feelings in an honest manner instead of ghosting you and never speaking to you again. I feel it was best for me to communicate than to not say anything. Hence why I said i didn't really enjoy thr experience. I wanted to be truthful, and I was. I will repeat again, we agreed on sharing space and getting to know each other before a bit of cuddling. Instead you insisted we go for a walk, and then leave the place we agreed to meet. I was fine with most of it up until the ice cream, where I felt it turned into a date. I've had more experiences with dates than cuddling sessions, thus feeling awkward as i only wanted this to be platonic. You proceeded to request we drive around. I only agreed because, again, I feared I would have no way to return home.
At the end of the experience I legitemately did go inside and go to bed, as I had said. I was not lying. I went about my night routine and went to bed, as I had to be up at 4:30 the next morning. I am not an easy sleeper, so I attempt to get as much as I can of a restful sleep. Thus I don't know why I'm explaining, but I repeat again, I have not lied to you, at all. I did not lie to you.
The part you say "she should be glad I did not mention her" I wish you had. Because I would be able to share my side of the story. I can't show off the messages through here via the block on both our sides, but i am happy to be transparent about the texts or over kik. I do not mind one bit.
I am not 'stalking' you, as you refer to in your PSS post, or harassing you. I am simply offering my side, which i feel is fair. If I were to post bad about you, would you not like the opportunity to show your side of things? I don't like drama. I do not want to start drama. But I have a hard time not speaking up when thr things you say are truly not true. The abuse you sent to me over messages were incredibly inappropriate, and I felt it needed to be shared with others. I did not tell anyone to be cautious of you. I did not make a post about you. I did not try to slander, or badmouth you in any way shape or form. I am not sorry anymore that you feel that way. It is your opinion truly, however you need to have transparency when speaking of things before saying that the lie is the truth. It is not. Please be truthful next time.
I would also like to note it was a moderator who brought the thread to my attention. I blocked out your information because I did not want people to harass you, and the moderator also asked that I proceed with blacking out your number and username.
In addition, I do not wish you any ill feelings. The situation is still upsetting and frustrating to me, but I honestly do not have any ill feeling towards you. I genuinely do hope you enjoy the rest of your week, and am able to find solace in the feelings you have, perhaps finding a solution that relies on the truth and not a warped reality.
Have a good day, David
I would also like to not, I am NOT in any way shape or form, trying to be a victim in any light. I simply feel I needed to show my side of the story as it felt unfair not to (repeating what I've said in previous replies). I am NOT wanting to be a victim. I feel it is just the best way to go about things to be truthful. To show light to each side of the story, to have all the information before making a judgement. Hence is why im responding, why i am not being silent. I truly do not like confrontation, but the wish to be heard and be truthful is too much to not speak up.
@cuddleversed right? This is why we can’t have nice things
@AshLewis thank you for continuing to be honest and honorable in sharing your side of the story. I think you are the victim here, somewhat objectively, but that you can do that without “playing the victim” if that makes any sense. Ironically enough, Dave has played the victim intensely. I think he needs help and is beyond the assistance that internet strangers can offer him.
🤷 I would say he wasn't originally attacking anyone. Since they blocked each other and no reviews left, there was zero way for anyone to know who he was talking about. There are always two sides to every story of course, and his original description may not have been 100% accurate as to how it would be viewed from someone on the outside, but it was 100% accurate from his own perspective.
I think this whole thread can be used as an example when anyone asks one of two questions: 1) why aren't there non-professional women and 2) why would anyone pay for a professional. I think both of the parties involved could benefit from a GOOD professional (and dare I say a traditional therapist as well). Our society and culture does a terrible job teaching about communication and boundaries and this is the result.
Both perspectives are valid, despite his outburst. There was "wrong" going on in both directions, but his outbust crossed the furthest line (and it seems he recognizes this). Speaking as a woman who has grown in communication and boundaries immensely in the past 2.5 years, I think it's just as important for someone to learn how to speak their truth as it is for someone to learn how to recognize, respect, and move on when someone else is not able to do that.
This whole thread is a mess. Despite comments, it's completely understandable that he expected her to not see this since she blocked him and him her. That's how Facebook works and is often the expectation here with newcomers. He shared his perspective and was not attacking a specific person.
I do believe she made it worse by joining and identifying herself, but it sounds like she was encouraged to do so by moderators, and I may have done the same thing if I thought there was any chance of my being identified. Personally, I had no issue addressing his perspective without knowing both sides, as his experience is his own truth and it is valid, but that's the professional in me, lol.
Oh well. I expect this to be closed soon. 😇
It sounds like to me there were just different expectations on both sides. From Dave's side, it probably seemed like more of a "traditional date" so he followed his best instincts there by turning it into an event, driving around, getting ice cream, etc but from AshLewis perspective she just wanted that physical affection cuddling in the park, as originally agreed. The date-like experience came across as pushy and uncomfortable, possibly with trepidation of it escalating to something non-platonic. Coupled with the fact that she feels Dave misrepresented himself with his picture, which likely made it a bit uncomfortable from the get go.
I don't think anyone is in the 100% right or wrong here. Dave acted immaturely by sending those rude messages and it was incredibly distasteful to bring up emotional and sensitive topic about her mother. Once she blocked him, the most mature thing to do would be to just leave it at that. There appears to be limited self reflection from his perspective which is disappointing to see. Though the simple fact that he created this thread gives credibility to him wanting feedback on the situation, so at least he can now self reflect, even if subconsciously, to improve on things in the future.
From AshLewis side, she could of communicated her feelings and expectations a lot clearer - especially in person, something she admits too. She has to understand that men will tend to air on the side of caution when it comes to physical contact, especially if there aren't any strong vibes there in person to validate it. Saying after the fact that you are disappointed there wasn't much cuddling does somewhat come across as contractionary. Again, a miscommunication, so nobody is perfect in this situation. One thing's for sure, she has handled this situation with pure grace and dignity and show's great confidence posting her side of the story.
Hopefully both parties can draw a line under this now and use this event as a learning experience to improve future connections with fellow cuddlers.
I think “she made it worse” is a bit unfair. I tend to perceive that women have much more to lose than men in these kinds of situations.
If she is in the wrong, then great. Not many more are affected negatively by her sharing her side of the story. Dave has his feelings hurt. Everyone moves on. Life is good.
If he is in the wrong, but continues masquerading around like this kind and thoughtful person, many more victims come up in the future where they are emotionally harmed at best and physically harmed or killed at worst. What we see in Dave are very troubling signs of duplicitous and manipulative behaviors. If I can’t trust a man’s word, his picture, or even an accurate telling of a story, where do the lies start and stop?
I would imagine that, left unchecked, Dave will continue harming and hurting other women. And it’s very possible that there are those whom he harmed before that have not come out to share their stories.
Protection of privacy for those in a balanced situation makes sense. But this is not a balanced situation.
Wow. That is quite a twist. You're coming off like those internet self proclaimed nice guys. Next time maybe try analyzing how you come off. No wonder this person felt uncomfortable.
I'd be interested to see how different the photo is. Some people have no photo, or a photo of something abstract ; but I think if a photo is of a person, it ought to be a good likeness.
@davebutton You have every right to speak up and defend yourself. Lots more fish in the sea, my brother 😊
When we see news stories of missing persons (overwhelmingly women) and some angry looking person (overwhelmingly men) being led away in handcuffs, all too often there's a social media backstory. Is our community safer for being tolerant of these back and forth feuds? Perhaps it's instructive for how and why strangers need certain precautions when meeting for cuddling, but I see bullying and unhealthy drama. We need to have some line of demarcation to indicate where we put up the orange cones and let law enforcement take over. As I see it, that barricade is in sight.
@snuggleme123 Lot of good stuff in that classic. Hard to pick just one but.....why not?
If someone is caught to be portraying themselves as someone they are not, manipulating the truth, playing the victim, and/or cat-fishing, I'd think that would be a bannable offense. If a man or woman does this, it's incredibly toxic and damaging to the trust between community members.
It could create an atmosphere where the website and/or forums attract more members with toxic intentions/behaviors rather than members with healthy intentions/behaviors.
I don't think this site is designed to be a mental health forum. Seems more to the point of cuddling. But it seems to be unclear in that message to new members. I think the moderation of the site is the best I've seen in contrast to other cuddling websites, but that doesn't mean, it couldn't be improved. I think there could be more women non-pros, if there was a more strict policy of bannable offenses in relation to toxic behavior/intentions/actions.
Also closing threads that aren't directly related to cuddling topics and intense political posts that are more likely to divide people. In the short run, it might create less traffic for the site, but in the long run, it could actually attract more people for the site after establishing a reputation for safety and word of mouth.
I don't have the time or the energy to read all of the posts here (I haven't read most of the previous ones to my last response), so I'm just gonna clear up some points in Bles' summation (as much as I hate to bump this post again) because I think there's still some misconceptions and it looks like Ashlin has made some inaccurate statements.
It really seems like, just based on Bles' summation, that she's mischaracterizing or exaggerating a lot of things just because I vented about the experience... even though I didn't identify her! I do listen to the women I'm with, I do care how they feel, but if they don't make an indication that they don't want to do something, and instead agree to it, or don't say "let's do something else" then it's ridiculous to tell someone they don't want to see you again because you didn't do what they wanted. I'm not your mind-reading butler, and I'm sorry it didn't go well the way you seemed to be indicating at the time, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's going to happen to someone else. Poor communication and then blaming. I don't know how to meet halfway with someone like this.
She's not being honest about everything here. My guess is she's done something like this to her co-workers, and that's why they're mad at her and she was alone.
If I have to, I'll go through every one of her replies and point out what was incorrect or just a lie. She'd already blocked me after her first reply days after the session, obviously intentionally so I couldn't leave a review. I blocked her and got pissed and left this thread. She then doxed both of us, pretty stupidly I might add, but then that might be par for the course of her not indicating at the time what she did or didn't want to do, and then blaming me for not doing what she wanted. There's no excuse for that. I can't read your mind.
For all of you gallows-jumpers and white-knights, you make it worse when you try to find every fault with someone being criticized, and throw bombs onto the fire especially with your misperceptions and conclusion-jumping. I'm not gonna go through and try to disentangle all of that. I don't disagree with my actual flaws that have been pointed out or revealed; but I've noticed in this forum a lot of attacking for apparently self-righteous or holier-than-thou points, and what's even worse is when the man is assumed to be the evil lying one and the woman the saintly truthful one. I didn't identify anyone. She did. And now it's this giant ugly mess instead of a vent-question-request thread, because her personal pride couldn't just let things dissipate.
I've seen several users here mentioned to me in private message or in threads as being gallows-jumpers and white-knights; I'm not going to name them here, but I'm sure some of them know who they are. You're not special. You're not better. I don't do that to people, because I don't need that self-justification. I barely read their nonsense because I can make my own opinions. But many people know who you are. She may be one of them, or just to me, I don't know or care. This was my personal vent because she blocked me from reviewing her before I could even reply to her blameful hypocritical shutdown of me trying to find out if things were good enough or if they could be better.
Peace out. I've used the forum to help with my own issues, yes. I haven't had an issue like this with anyone else. I've had great experiences with many cuddlers. If you hate me or don't want to talk to me or do anything with me, fine. My intention was not to hurt people or make them uncomfortable. I learned my lesson with her when I got a warning from admin about my harassment of her through text, which I'm assuming she sent to them (which is the proper thing to do). That's not something I'll ever do again. But then I've never had someone do the other thing to me here. There's no justification for what I did, but there's no sense in blaming me for something that you indicated being just fine to at the time and agreed to. The poor communication was childish, and I think she knows it, though maybe she's a little vindictive and controlling too, who knows. There's a reason people are angry at her and she's alone. If this is her respite, great. I'll be that pariah. I want to her to have friends and good experiences. I never want to see her again. I can only hope she'll use this to build relationships not burn them down after indicating things are going fine and people are going along with each other's yes/no's.
@davebutton There is no honor in what you are doing. Still running in circles trying to excuse away things only makes things worse for you . Insight and maturity is too lacking for me to even try to offer anything constructive at this point . You will only continue excusing yourself.
This particular thread has run its course. Both parties involved in this incident have given their sides of this story, which has been broken down with points of improvement noted for both sides. May they have better experiences going forward.
Closed. 2020-07-09 9:38:00.90 ET