@snuggleme123 Governments as a policy, create money out of nowhere. A long time ago, the notes and coins in circulation represented the value of gold bars stacked in a depository ; but "quantitative easing" means governments have created far more money than the "value" of their nations, and can, if they choose, simply print / distribute money. It's like a bank giving a customer an unsecured loan or overdraft.
The UK furlough scheme is paying most of the wages, of about half of the workers, for about half a year. The only parts of the economy which HAVE to keep going, are those related to the production and delivery of food, healthcare, electricity etc. The US government can choose to not do that. It can also choose to allow political rallies.
@camperdude989 I don't really mind people taking risks with their own lives, but I do mind them taking risks with the lives of others ; such as, in this case, the people to whom they might pass the virus.
The elderly and sick in residential care, won't get much enjoyment, from someone else enjoying a night out in a crowded bar ; and the socialising drinker, won't be the one suffering as they die on a ventilator. With no traceability to back-track the transmission path, there is no direct legal or moral responsibility.
@snuggleme123 agreed and no I can't argue that. My case isn't for lockdown . My case Is to continue being responsible. There are way too many people who aren't being safe . A lot of it is a combination of ignorance of the facts and being defiant because they feel they shouldn't have to do it , the old being told something so much that they do the opposite . There are safe ways to conduct life and people are choosing not to . That's why there are spikes in so many cities directly after "reopening ". Again it is not about that. People are more concerned with arguing rights and grievances than about being responsible and safe . I totally agree that we can't just stay in lockdown . Just we have to dramatically change some things in order for that to work properly and too many people are not taking that seriously. To me that Is irresponsible, reckless , and selfish. And I speak from my observations and try to not just state my opinions. I know four people personally who have lost loved ones from this. A husband, a father, and two grandmothers . So that coupled with working in healthcare as a medical social worker and case manager and seeing first hand how many people not just become hospitalized from this but the level of suffering they and their families endure makes me really frustrated when I see people refusing to do simple things to avoid risk of spreading this.
@pmvines Agreed. I think some people exercise their rights, simply because they can, and end up doing things more than they normally would, just to make a point. If everyone always exercised every right, to the limit of the Constitution, it would be unsustainable.
@snuggleme123 "the scientists are all lying" is a massive stretch, and there are plenty of scientists saying they don't know what we're dealing with.
You're presenting a strawman argument. Nobody is saying that we can/should have an indefinite lockdown, like you said that wouldn't be viable. Having a finite lockdown which helps flatten the curve and buy us time to either develop a vaccine or for the numbers to die down a lot is better long term VS opening everything up when things are still bad.
It's not just a matter of people dying. We have very vague ideas about the long term potential effects of being infected but from what we do know so far they can be pretty devastating. The number of people with underlying breathing and health issues which would be made worse, or who would end up having to have limbs amputated because of severe blood clots, etc would/could outnumber ones who die from it.
Living responsibly means actually being responsible for your actions and their effects.
The problem is we were supposed to have a finite 15 day lockdown and it dragged on for months and meanwhile we were allowed to congregate in big box stores. The government did not distribute enough relief money directly to the people and it mainly went to big corporations. Workers who earned tips, cash or worked in the sex industry were completely left out of the equation. So its really not fair to compare us to Italy where the government cancelled mortgages, rents and debts. Yes there are some stubborn jerks who just don’t care and were being reckless just so they could have their back yard BBQ or attend a protest or political rally but so much of the population just couldn’t afford to not get paid any longer and those jerks that don’t care about the virus are more likely to come out and support struggling businesses than the “responsible” ones who will stay in quarantine until there is a vaccine. We are not a communist or socialist regime. Most US citizens do not like being told what to do or being held hostage in their homes. It was inevitable that as the weather got warmer people would get restless. The government failed to stop the virus, failed to financially support its citizens in order to quarantine so now worrying about the virus and staying safe is a luxury for the wealthy since pandemic unemployment will soon end . We need one really strict quarantine where everyone stays home for one solid month except for emergency and healthcare workers and the people that keep the utilities running. We all get a fair warning and stock up on food and supplies before hand, we all get big checks from the government and we all get tested during this month. Thats the only way we can actually beat down this virus (without a medical breakthrough) but our lockdown was a mess.
Can I post when I paused my account? Lets see
Ok. I guess I can
@xandriarain The lockdown in the UK was certainly harder on those living in apartment blocks, than it was on those living in mansions with huge gardens.
Most people don't have enough food in for more than a couple of days, and there would be no way for deliveries to keep up.
This pandemic is bad, I estimate we'll lose several million people directly or indirectly. The only good thing that might come out of it, is if we are better prepared for the next one. Imagine if the incubation period and fatality rate were both doubled. The trouble with modern civilization, is that it is too precarious ; and there are too few who remember the last pandemic, who could have demanded earlier intervention.
pmvines wrote: "A veterans nursing home right here in AL has 150 residents. Of that 150, there were 91 covid cases , 23 resulting in covid related death starting from march . Ground zero was an employee who didn't even know she had it due to having no symptoms but within a week of her testing positive the residents began testing positive."
Since this was brought up, i would like to ask him and others how do they think it spreads in a nursing home like this, such a high percentage of residents getting it from one infected person? Is it airborne? Is it spread by the worker touching things? Or through this person just breathing? This is what i dont get and scares me the most about this virus, is how easily it spreads in close quarters indoors. Any ideas how this worker spread it? How the residents actually caught it?
Hey yall. I'm not typically too political. But with the craziness going on I wanted to use my voice to remind everyone that their is a third option. Hard to believe really..... and No I'm not about kanye; I'm talking about Jo Jorgensen. Someone who can actually articulate a sentence, and has had hardly any social media attention. Her ideals have fit with a lot of views I've heard over time from friends, and strangely enough because of the social media outpour of trump hate and Biden dissapoint, she isn't being seen or even considered as an option.🙏 Voting third party is NOT a wasted vote. Consider all your options. 🧡 I just listened to a podcast of her taking calls from each party and answered everyone with grace and respect even the nasty bitter ones, If nothing else That alone is a step up from Trump or Biden imo.. I strongly recommend researching her a bit more and giving her a bit of your time. Thanks for listening !
First Off @pmvines I may have been a little hard on the Beav. (for the black and white tv people) Dude I am sure you are under a lot of pressure however you have many time chastised people that there actions are causing people to die. I do not care how widespread the virus is ( and i believe it is very widespread ) I do not care about the death rate ( i believe it is low ) I believe it is not the fault of people trying to live there lives that others die. No one is stopping me from driving cuz the emissions are killing people by mutating cells into cancer. No one locks down the highways cuz people are killed and mutilated every day on them. Hundreds of people are allowed in Walmart but the world will end if we let a few at a time work out in a gym. Sorry that the population is a tad too smart to see the stupidity, the bs and the admitted lies of the almighty Dr Fauci. @pmvines I have mad respect for you, darren walker, dong long, catloaf, littermate, and others and you are at the top. Like I said, I know your work is a heavy influence on your position but may I humbly suggest reflection on a large bent to the judgemental. You once told me I should come lick your toilet bowl to prove the size of my balls rather than going to play tennis match with someone during a deadly pandemic. Again sorry but living my life does not make me a murderer of those in your covid wing. Just as we all must die we all must live. I am not saying not being as safe as you can but people have lost their ever loving minds and stupidity and self righteousness reign at the moment.
next @geoff1000 "It's like a bank giving a customer an unsecured loan or overdraft." I would say it is the theft of the prosperity of our kids and who knows how many lines down the road. Just cuz "SOME" people are getting a free lunch today does not mean a bill wont go out. Horrendously, a lot of that debt will be paid back to the Chinese.
@Zundar Yep you caught me not all are outright lying but the main ones have admitted to purposely lying and admit to putting out misleading stats. Deborah Brooks said anyone who is in a hospital and has covid will be listed as a covid hospitalization and anyone who dies with covid is listed as a covid death. Heard it come out of her mouth myself. Sorry but someone who comes into a hospital er with a ruptured appendix and is found out to have covid should not be listed as a covid hospitalization. That is a lie ment solely to create panic and make gvt control easy. Some one dies in a car accident and is tested for covid and positive is called a covid death, Deborah's words. That is a lie to the public. Remember just cuz it is "science" doesnt mean it is fact. It was solid science that the Earth was flat and the Planets orbited around us. Science is like many things these days, it can be bought and sold. Fyi, I am pro science, I majored in Bio chem and physics. I just am not oblivious to the worlds influence on the science. It used to be more pure.
@xandriarain " The government failed to stop the virus, failed to financially support its citizens in order to quarantine" The notion that the govt is able to protect us from anything is their biggest and best lie. We are not in a Hollywood movie. No govt on the planet has any power to stop this thing. It is evident it was around before anyone knew it was a thing. There is nothing anyone could have done by the time we knew to stop it. They dont have a clue how. Remember months ago when they said the summer would help us kill it down. The virus wont be able to deal with the heat. Its 100+ in a lot of Texas and darn near it in Florida and well over in Arizona and across the whole south. Where are the bad spots right now? So much for the heat helping huh. The fact is Democrats dont know what they are talking about. Republicans dont know what they are talking about. Independants dont know what they are talking about. Scientist dont know what they are talking about. They are throwing darts. Second the govt cannot financially support the population. If you just keep printing money this thing called inflation makes a loaf of bread cost a grand. Oh and if we are all locked down who will make the bread and round up the eggs and milk the cows and get it all to your house if we are all at our house?
There is no guarantee that ANY length of time locked up will stop the virus now. It is too late. There is no guarantee that ANY vaccine will be found. The quote vaccine for the flu is not one cuz it only lessons your chance of getting it or the severity. So that wont stop the covid it ill only help flatten the curve a bit. As we have seen, we did that in the shutdown. Fat lot of good that did us huh.
Perhaps we should do more to lock down the old, the at risk, and compromised. Nope discrimination, common sense maybe? Cant have that.
The simple fact and the sad fact is people will have to die and the rest will have to live.
Ok I am going back to my paused status. Im done with the endless negative threads, @MissAdventurous excluded, Im personally tired of covid carousels, sexism, racism, lynchings, white supremacy and privilege blah blah blah. And yes I am as black as the kettle, that is why I am stepping away for a while. To much toxic in this and me right now. Its too bad the its about to go down thread isnt what dominates. But be the change you want to see, so I am off to work on me.
Love ya @pmvines
@snuggleme123 my beaver is strong with sharp teeth it's fine. I make no apologies for preaching responsible behavior. No reason for me to . I mean some people wanna argue about it not being cool to put others at risk go for it but why ? I try to err on what sits right with me and this feels right . I also try to not preach what I don't practice. And its not anything personal. I may shame an action but unless purposefully egregious I try to not shame the person . But yes I am extremely pro caution with this. Knowing what I know it would be wrong for me not to be . I mean I work in healthcare and actually do work around covid patients and interact with patients, families, and staff members regularly. What else would you expect from me ?
@snuggleme123 Governments are continually tightening the regulations for vehicle exhaust emissions, and the impact survival of occupants and pedestrians. The USA has some of the strictest on both ( it was one of the first to have unleaded gasoline ), and speed limits that some countries don't have at all.
It is the duty of a nation to protect its citizens, which in some cases means causing one sort of harm, in order to prevent a worse harm. That might include borrowing from our children, to ensure they have a future.
Science ( Galileo ) determined that the earth moved around the sun, but the church/state threatened to kill him unless he recanted ; the problem with power is that those who have it, can go to great lengths to keep it. I couldn't believe it when Trump authorised the political rally, while banning other meetings ; but UK politicians have been caught breaking their own rules.
Our actions do impact others, sometimes in a negative way ; but when there is no direct traceability, only our conscience holds us accountable.
Melancholy, it is a bold faced lie when you say “the rest of the world did so much better.“ Check the deaths per million by population. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/coronavirus/ I am happy to have a respectful political discourse with you, but if you are incapable of honesty it is not worth it.
PMvines, COVID came from Wuhan, China where there is an infectious disease lab. It is a logical conclusion it was from the lab, not bat soup.
Snuggleme123- you are a wise man. These folks who should be angry at China would rather blast their own Government! Imagine if this was a more deadly virus that came from China? It could be next time. And these folks and their blind hatred for their own country is a big reason why we will not adequately prepare for that scenario.
Who ever said anything about hating the US?
It is not a logical conclusion to say it came from the lab just because the lab exists @eddie2sweaty
It’s logical to say that because there’s an infectious diseases lab there that it could potentially have come from there, or even that it’s more plausible for it to be anything other than a natural outbreak due to the existence and placement of the lab.
Jumping to “therefore it’s from the lab” isn’t rational. That kind of claim requires more evidence than has been presented, and if you believe that despite the lack of evidence then that’s both irrational and illogical.
I strongly dislike the CCP for things we know they’ve done, but unless there’s sufficient evidence to support the claim they’re actually responsible for the virus that has nothing to do with anything. Fearmongering about future viruses they might send over is similarly unreasonable and unfounded.
The only one with blind hatred appears to be you.
Zundar, it sounds like you do not even believe the virus came from China?it did- it came from Wuhan, China. This is one of several diseases to come from China. Whether intentional or due to gross negligence they continue to kill innocent people worldwide. Folks like pmvines gloss over that. To me, that is dangerous thinking.
@eddie2sweaty If we say we agree with you, will you go away?
@eddie2sweaty if you think that’s what I think based on what I said then I really have no clue what to say. I at no point indicated that I don’t believe it originated from China. But you don’t seem too interested in the truth, only in your narrative. And that, is the truly dangerous thinking.
@eddie2sweaty what am I glossing over ? You are the one ranting about China. I am advocating for safe practice to avoid spread which who knew could be a source of contention but apparently it is. My refusal to engage with you over your rants doesn't mean I am glossing over anything. I care about the reality of my life and surroundings. Not about your rants about China.
@geoff1000 Yes the gas mileage and emissions were improve over years. But the cars were not mandated to stay in garages and the roads were not closed. 🤦♂️
It is not the federal govts role to protect citizens from harm. Basically the US conctitution gives DC the power to proyect us from you invading and to regulate interstate commerce. The vast majority of its power today came from cowards like you giving up their freedom and power from the states, not listening to Ben and others.
The children will have no future if they are slaves to gov. Via policy or debt.
Galileo, yes you proved my point govt and science are corrupt and cannot be blindly trusted.
I am no more accountable for come one getting covid cuz I live my life than I am when someone gets a cold. If you get covid it sucks for you, not my fault no more that its your fault if I got it. Sorry. My conscience is clear.
Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Franklin D. Roosevelt: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty, or give me death."
A free people led by strength and conviction would do far better with this than a nation of scared sheep looking to mommy in DC to make it better. It is the height of stupidity to think that this virus will be killed off by policy. Individual ingenuity and the private innovation. And nowhere on the planet has shutdowns eradicated the virus, but sure, more of it will surely work. For sure not the contradictory, hypocritical crap out there now. And I am not advocating irresponsibility. Gov wont cuz fix it cuz they cant. They are as corupt as any other govt. Every election we put in new pied pipers that lead to the same destruction just a slightly different tune, no one the wiser. Election after election we put in new Ds or Rs and it all the same tune, give up just a little and we can get here and there. Well look people do we have wide spread liberty in the old USA? Is there safety abounding? Nope, cuz ole Ben Franklin was right. You give up little bits and lose it all, America gone to hell in a handbasket. Just look around. I chose to not live in fear, I chose Liberty. Laugh and ridicule at will. But Ben et all was correct and the people will get what they deserve.
@eddie2sweaty I didn't read this entire thread but I have noticed your reading comprehension is quite bad. On multiple occasions you have seemed to be unhappy with people for thinking certain things, things which they never said. You are essentially creating an argument with yourself. I am just wanting to bring this to your attention since I would like to know this in your position.
@snuggleme123 I thought you were leaving ?
"cowards like you" sounds like a personal attack, and you have nothing on which to base that. I'm from the UK.
Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic Church, and yet you seem happy to trust your religion.
If you have a cold, sneeze on your hand, touch a door, and someone else touches it and catches a cold ; then you are responsible. Or rather, you are irresponsible.
The Right to Free Speech doesn't allow someone in a crowded theatre to shout "FIRE!", or publish a newspaper on June 5th 1944 announcing the Normandy invasion will be tomorrow. Such people would be jailed or hung.
I'd like to know how many infectious disease labs there are in China. If there's only 1, near Wuhan, that's interesting ; but I suspect there are hundreds, so wherever the outbreak started, it would be near to one of them.
Some posters are saying the USA response was bad, citing the number of deaths attributed to Covid-19 ; while others are saying that the death figures are being artificially inflated, by including deaths where Covid-19 was present but not a factor. Logical reasoning says that at least one of those viewpoints is wrong, showing that posting emphatically with supporting evidence from the Internet, isn't proof that something is true.
@JasonCuddles I think his reading comprehension is alright, he's just performing mental gymnastics to come to conclusions which don't make sense.
All these diseases coming from China, has made me so worried that I've thrown out all my crockery, because it was made of china.
@geoff1000 Yep im not shutting up
It is cowardice to take the freedom of others simply cuz you are afraid. It is cowardice to steal trillions on trillions from the future cuz you are scared of a virus.
U know you are across the pond. Brave people once left the tyranny of your land and then even the Brits got more freedom. The virus is global, the govt over reach is global so you are in this problem.
"If you have a cold, sneeze on your hand, touch a door, and someone else touches it and catches a cold ; then you are responsible. Or rather, you are irresponsible." This is as stupid as guns are responsible for a murder. The person that pulled the trigger is the killer not the gun. I have said that i am not advocating irresponsibility. You forget or ignore that. Free people should decide wether to go into a business. Free people should decide to close their shop. Govt has no authority to take your life to protect another. How about the responsibility of the vulnerable to stay home them selves. How about the person who got the cold from the door nob being responsible for not wearing a glove. I dont have time. I have to go work cuz I have bills and need food.
"The Right to Free Speech doesn't allow someone in a crowded theatre to shout "FIRE!", or publish a newspaper on June 5th 1944 announcing the Normandy invasion will be tomorrow. Such people would be jailed or hung."
I dont have time for the stupidity in that statement 🤦♂️