"We all want to be liked by everyone," huh? Not quite what Steven Pinker, Martin Novak, and James Lee seem to think, but I guess there's some overlap. See, I was thrown by my apparent inability to just tell this person "no." I'm a blunt guy. I get in trouble for not being indirect enough. So I started Googling, and I turned up this article:
People often don't blurt out what they mean in so many words but veil their intentions in innuendo, euphemism, or doublespeak. Here are some familiar examples: —Would you like to come up and see my etchings? [a sexual come-on] —If you could pass the guacamole, that would be awesome. [a polite request] —Nice store you got there. Would be a real shame if something happened to it. [a threat] —We're counting on you to show leadership in our Campaign for the Future. [a solicitation for a donation] —Gee, officer, is there some way we could take care of the ticket here? [a bribe] This phenomenon poses a theoretical puzzle. Indirect speech is inefficient, vulnerable to being misunderstood, and seemingly unnecessary (because only a naïf could fail to see past the literal meaning). Yet politeness and other forms of indirectness in speech appear to be universal or nearly so. We all play this game and may be offended at those who don't, setting the stage for the hypocrisy and taboo in social life that are ubiquitously decried, yet ubiquitously obeyed. ... For 50 years, indirect speech has been intensively studied by linguists, philosophers, and psycholinguists, and the processes by which speakers veil their requests and hearers recover them have been well documented. However, the reason people engage in these maneuvers in the first place (as opposed to saying what they mean clearly and succinctly) is still largely unexplained. In this Perspective, we apply ideas from the analysis of signaling in evolutionary biology and from evolutionary game theory to illuminate possible advantages of indirect speech.
Fascinating, right?
@Esquire: Don't worry, man—I'm not offended you obviously thought I was a girl cuddling with a guy.
...Well, okay, maybe a little. But hey. I can laugh at myself.
@DarrenWalker I thought it was two guys. Nothing wrong with that. Carry on.
@Esquire: Oh. Well, in that case I'm a little offended that you knew I didn't consider my buddy physically dangerous to me, and still said "Be thankful his escalation wasn't to choke or punch you. You played with fire and got lucky." It's like—dude. I know who I can take. Don't talk down to me.
I mean, I get talked down to enough, what with my height and all. Tough to find somebody short enough to talk up to me.
In my world, "buddy" is used by one Male to refer to another Male friend. Females never refer to other females as a buddy.
Your use of "they" to refer to a singular person also is confusing.
@DarrenWalker
PS. I had no knowledge, nor did I make any assumption, of the relative size, strength, or fighting skills of either of the two cuddling partners.
@Esquire: Makes sense. I can see how those two things would be confusing. Yeah, I call every cuddle buddy I have my buddy because, you know... cuddle buddy. Be they male, female, both, neither—"cuddle buddy."
As far as the singular they goes (which is "back quite a long way"), you're just gonna have to get used to it. Everyone has his or her or xyr own opinion on the subject—eh, no, that's clunky. Everyone has their own opinion on the subject, but there the singular they is in the modern style guides, totally acceptable and frankly really dang useful. I use it when I'm talking about agender people, or those who I think it's best to leave as anonymous as possible.
I have, and in my experience it's always been guys that have gotten fresh with me. I've had one woman try and cross my boundaries. The moment my boundaries are crossed I kick that person out of my space--no questions asked. Before cuddling with someone I like to sit down with them face to face in a non-cuddling environment like over coffee, not only so that we can see how well we click but also so that we can discuss boundaries. That way no one can say, "Well, didn't know!" The moment someone screws that up I get up and tell them that they need to leave.
@CuddlyAce: That. That may not be the magical, perfect 10, but it's definitely at least an 8. That is a thing I should probably do: pre-cuddle meeting, one-strike policy. It seems like a very good plan.
@DarrenWalker Pre-cuddle meetups are always ideal. I've met some people who we click with well online but not face to face, for some reason and it makes cuddling awkward if there's not sense of "connection". Pre-cuddle meetups also allow you to see if you're about to become an episode of "Criminal Minds". You can get a "vibe" off of a person.
And of course it allow you to set boundaries. Now, I like more "intimate" cuddling--like I and my partner facing each other and entangling our legs and giving back scratches, or laying my head on my partners chest or shoulder while they caress my face. I like to get close. I know not everyone likes this so I get to see what they're comfortable with, what I'm comfortable with and we can set boundaries so there's no confusion.
@CuddlyAce totally meeting up first is quite helpful, I'd even say essential! Someone I'd once met unfortunately in addition to not being good, they did not even take care of their basic hygiene. So, I am glad we basically just had a hello, and good-bye.
I met other individuals that did take care of themselves in that regard so, not trying to scare anyone. Also, for me it's quite important to have some things in common, and for our personality to be similar in someways.
@TisDoney I started a conversation about: Consent, and Refusal
I don't know how to include my post, or yours to mine, though, I'll give it a try. This is my post: https://cuddlecomfort.com/forum/discussion/5566/share-with-us-contents-you-find-are-wonderful-in-learning-about-consent-and-refusal-of-consent#latest
@DarrenWalker I'd like to quote your feedback regarding your experience, and comment on my post about: "... Consent, and Refusal of Consent"
I think I've some ideas about what might be the case, and to give you my thoughts on your experiences/wonders. Though, I don't want to take the post of OP @TisDoney a different direction as I think it'd go if we start talking about this. Let me know, if you like me to add your experiences for discussion to my post: "... Consent, and Refusal of Consent"
@TisDoney It's a good thing you're bringing attention to this. Lots of doubt in people, in general, who are skeptical in ''joining the 'platonic cuddling' movement'' because of boundaries or fears of what might happen. Especially with women, justifiably. Men too. Thanks.
@Lovelight: Go for it!
The thing is, the cuddling world needs to evolve to be safer.
@TisDoney "The thing is, the cuddling world needs to evolve to be safer"
I would love that to happen, but considering there are new people joining all the time, I'm not sure what's actually possible. Do you have some practical ideas that could help with safety?
Don’t worry about evolving. In ten years AI will replace professional cuddlers.
@FunCartel I don't think you're all that far off on your predictions. And maybe it would be safer. It would probably bring up the mental health of everyone. That's amazing. I think there is a good socializing feature to human cuddlers but there are AI Therapists and other supporting technology that is proving very beneficial. Some people feel safer talking to a robot. I'd rather everyone happier to be honest. Psychology research might expedite the cure to mental health if you combine it with technology and share it with the world.
@TisDoney @FunCartel In spite of my story about an AI cuddler, I don't personally think anything can ultimately replace the need for human connection.
Uh, my prediction was tongue in cheek. I think it was taken way too seriously.
Agreed wholly @respectful I am someone who struggles to open up to therapists, except the slightly alternative one I was lucky to find who has the therapeutic relationship down pat. I tried a few AI and chat based options and while they could be affirming, I didn't feel the nuance was there. I read your story by the way which was admittedly adorable and thought provoking. It slightly reminded me of a... rather controversial... anime comedy called Chobits which came out 17 years ago now, and attempts to answer that very question. Maybe different people need different things, but yes, human interaction is its own valuable, organic thing. Maybe AI will work for those who can come to terms with the fact that they are simply interacting with man-made algorithms, but for those of us who want to interact with the human heart, it is no substitute.
Only cause I tend to be bad with body language at times and since I talk very directly in general, I prefer that I would get a flat out no. If it's directed toward me, I might as well need runway lights to be able to read cues lol. I'm sure there are people who are exceptionally good at body language hints but not this guy!
As for my experience of boundary pushing. I really don't have one to share that happened in person, but a few that usually happen in direct message. Things like me making it very clear that for the first meeting, I'd like to meet somewhere public, but the person insisting to meet at his place. On another site, the fact of me being interracial was brought up by the other person and went down the list of "ya know I like girls like you, it's kinda my fetish" to which I remind him that I really don't need to hear this and that this is absolutely not sexual so mentioning things like this is making me really uncomfortable. They continued then started to imply that they'd like to lay on top of me in boxers and asking what I would wear, so of course I said "f*** this" and told him I'm done.
I've had a few men try to be fresh right off the bat in messages. So far I haven't met up with anyone yet, partly due to life stuff and partly due to this worry...I have PTSD from things like this and find it's very rare someone is respectful of boundaries in situations like these.
@leesimon - I'm so sorry your boundaries have been violated. It ABSOLUTELY MATTERS.
@CuddleSquid love that you acknowledged leesimon.
I have had cuddlers violate my boundaries far too often, even when I started explicitly going through my boundaries beforehand with so much detail (and they always agreed that nothing sexual is going to happen ever, but so often they still do try to take it to a sexual place and no very subtly either.)
I try very hard to voice my boundaries in the moment if they still cross them. If they don't stop immediately or do it again or try to make bullshit excuses about it pretend there intentions weren't to get sexual, that should definitely be the end. I do shut down and go non-verbal sometimes when I get very uncomfortable, and it really fucking sucks. I've given people more chances they they've deserved before; I try to learn from that and not give people more chances anymore. Small red flags lead to big red flags, and your intuition needs to be trusted. Sometimes I've tried to just keep enjoying the cuddles despite parts of their behaviour making me uncomfortable, but I always regret giving them more chances. If we try again, and it's still a problem, never again, for sure.
@BigHugsCA - It's important. I have talked with several men, usually asexual ones but not always which is also important, who have often had their boundaries violated or been pressured/forced into getting sexual when all they wanted was platonic affection. And they are often made to feel ashamed for not automatically wanting sex just because they're men and someone is coming onto them. Men are allowed to not want sex, allowed to say no, allowed to not be ready at that time or ever.