Masculinity in alternate universes

DaringSprinterDaringSprinter
edited February 2022 in General

I was raised more or less middle class in mid-America. I'm familiar with the status games boys play, the wrestling matches, the stand-offs, the attempts at being intimidating—I've been there.

But in a recent thread, I got a peek at a very different type of boyhood. I'd like to hear more about it.

Please?

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Comments

  • SideonSideon

    One suggestion, since this was flagged, @DaringSprinter .

    Remove or edit "species". Please.

    Men are men. We have various cultures, socio economic, religious, and other backgrounds. But men, in all their various incarnations, are not separate species.

  • quixotic_lifequixotic_life

    @DaringSprinter ~ This sounds intriguing... Could you share a link to where your curiosity was sparked??

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter
    edited February 2022

    @Sideon: I was referring to the boyhood as different—the experiences, the upbringing, the childhood—not the boys. My childhood was a very different one from the ones described in the other thread, so I was curious.

    @quixotic_life: Sure! It's still active, it's the Being more bold thread.

    Edit: Oh, you were probably looking for a specific comment. Here, this was the most curiosity-inducing one for me.

  • SideonSideon

    Thanks, @DaringSprinter .

  • tucsonaztucsonaz

    I'm extremely confused. What exactly are you asking?

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @tucsonaz: In a recent thread, a couple of people either hinted at or directly described childhoods that taught them even worse things about being a man than mine taught me.

    I want to know more about the kind of boyhood that teaches a boy that, for example, it's okay to assault men over the most trivial of reasons. Because I... I didn't have that type of boyhood, and neither did my partner, and so it's new information, and fascinating to me.

  • tucsonaztucsonaz

    lol I'm even more confused now. What is the exact question you're asking?

    Yeah, men get assaulted for trivial things. Is that what you're asking?

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter
    edited February 2022

    @tucsonaz: From your easy acceptance of a thing I've never seen (men getting assaulted for something trivial), I'd say you probably had the kind of childhood I'm interested in.

    If you don't mind answering: what was it like?

    How did you interact with other boys; how did you see men interacting with one another; what sort of things did you hear about the way men do and don't behave?

  • tucsonaztucsonaz

    I've never seen it in person, but I know people who have been assaulted.

    My childhood was great!

    How did I interact? We mostly just hung out on the weekends or after school. Nothing out of the ordinary.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @tucsonaz: Sure, and I hung out with other kids too—but how did you interact?

    Did you have the scuffles, you know, to figure out who was the toughest? The ones that started verbal and ended physical, the ones that were physical from the get-go? Where were the places everyone knew not to hit, and were there adults everyone knew it was okay to tell? Did you show off your bikes and compete for who could do the coolest trick?

    Did you see your dads compare motorcycles, trucks, TVs? What did they tell you "real men" do when they're bullied, when they crash their bike, when they want something from the store, from someone else, from life? What did they do?

    How did you learn that men attack each other for basically nothing?

  • tucsonaztucsonaz
    edited February 2022

    I was never around people who were involved with physical violence, but there were definiately other groups that did violent things.

    Where were the places everyone knew not to hit?- not sure what you mean??????

    Nope, we all didn't do bike tricks.

    Nope, my Dad was never involved in that scene.

    I was told to fight back when bullied because then it would stop (they were right).

    No clue because I never crashed my bike.

    when they want something from the store, from someone else, from life? What did they do?- Not exactly sure what you're asking????? People go to the store to buy things. People ask others if they want things.

    I learned it by seeing the news and from other people.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @tucsonaz:
    Other groups of kids that did violent things? In your area? I am boggled. I heard about gangs, of course, but as a far off and distant thing. So this is fascinating.

    Where were the places everyone knew not to hit?- not sure what you mean??????

    Between the legs was off limits when I was a kid, and no thumbs in eyes. It's not like anybody ever actually said it, as far as I remember—we all just knew.

    Nope, we all didn't do bike tricks.

    Nope, my Dad was never involved in that scene.

    Well, bike tricks, skateboard tricks, knife tricks—houses, pools, tattoos, incomes. What did boys and men use to show off, basically.

    I was told to fight back when bullied because then it would stop (they were right).

    Did you get the "if he insults you, you insult him back—if he hits you, you hit him back" advice, or the "if he insults you, punch him—if he hits you, send him to the hospital" advice?

    No clue because I never crashed my bike.

    ...That is enviable.

    when they want something from the store, from someone else, from life? What did they do?- Not exactly sure what you're asking?????

    Well, as a for-instance: When I wanted something from the store Dad told me to get a job. That's what he did himself, and it's the manly thing to do, apparently. When I wanted something from someone else, he taught me to stop wanting it. When I wanted something from life, he told me to work for it. And so on. Very much a "hard work and controlled desire" message.

    What messages did your dad—and your friends' dads—give you?

    I learned it by seeing the news and from other people.

    What news have you been reading where men get attacked for no reason, and where can I read it too?

  • tucsonaztucsonaz
    edited February 2022

    Other groups of kids that did violent things? In your area? I am boggled.- Of course. It happens everywhere. Nothing new.

    Well, bike tricks, skateboard tricks, knife tricks—houses, pools, tattoos, incomes. What did boys and men use to show off, basically.- No clue because I don't hang around people who need to show off.

    Did you get the "if he insults you, you insult him back—if he hits you, you hit him back" advice, or the "if he insults you, punch him—if he hits you, send him to the hospital" advice?- I was just told to defend myself.

    When I wanted something from the store Dad told me to get a job.- Like something besides food and clothes? Obviously I got a job and made money on my own.

    When I wanted something from someone else, he taught me to stop wanting it. - Something like what?

    When I wanted something from life, he told me to work for it.- That's smart advice.

    What news have you been reading where men get attacked for no reason, and where can I read it too?- It happens every day everywhere. Read any newspaper. Men have been attacked outside sports venues for years,

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @tucsonaz

    No clue because I don't hang around people who need to show off.

    Again, you have astounded me. I've never (to my knowledge) encountered a human being who, having something they thought was nice, didn't want to show it to their friends. Well. I'll have to rephrase.

    What sorts of things did the men and boys around you think were nice, and valuable, worth having and holding onto?

    I was just told to defend myself.

    How did you interpret that instruction?

    Obviously you didn't go the purely defensive, blocking only route. So did you understand "defending yourself" as giving as good as you got, or as beating him down so he'd never try again, or...?

    Like something besides food and clothes? Obviously I got a job and made money on my own.

    Well, yeah. I was ten: my food and clothes were parentally provided. But for chewing gum or candy or books or anything, it was lawn-mowing and leaf-raking or I could forget it. What jobs did you do as a kid?

    Something like what?

    ...Like a pogo stick. I thought it was really cool, okay? And it was the only one on the street. The other kid wasn't about to let it go.

    What would your dad have said about something like that?

    It [men getting attacked for no reason] happens every day everywhere.

    Then why the heck does it always seem to be about money, or some sports fan's violent identification with a losing team, or....

    Aw, forget it.

    When I wanted something from life, he told me to work for it.- That's smart advice.

    What did your dad tell you?

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    As a side note:

    My parents have always been certain that they're middle class, so I never doubted it.

    @HogboblinZwei just pointed out, however, that a family with ten kids that mostly gets its clothes from church donation boxes, sometimes has members with no shoes that fit, and occasionally goes on food stamps... that's probably not a middle class family. Even if the dad did bring a motorcycle with him when he got married.

    I, uh.

    I'm gonna have to think about that.

  • tucsonaztucsonaz

    Again, you have astounded me. I've never (to my knowledge) encountered a human being who, having something they thought was nice, didn't want to show it to their friends. Well. I'll have to rephrase.- Of course I showed things to my friends, but we never felt the need to show off.

    What sorts of things did the men and boys around you think were nice, and valuable, worth having and holding onto?- We collected baseball cards (and still do!).

    How did you interpret that instruction?

    Obviously you didn't go the purely defensive, blocking only route. So did you understand "defending yourself" as giving as good as you got, or as beating him down so he'd never try again, or...?- I defended myself by speaking up for myself.

    ...Like a pogo stick. I thought it was really cool, okay? And it was the only one on the street. The other kid wasn't about to let it go. What would your dad have said about something like that?- Those things were reserved for Birthday or Christmas.

    Then why the heck does it always seem to be about money- Not all attacks involve money.

    What did your dad tell you?- Exactly what you stated: "When I wanted something from life, he told me to work for it."

  • UKGuyUKGuy

    When I was a boy there were lots of local bullies. By that I mean other boys who would just walk up to you and punch you in the face. There were boys at school like that too. These were obviously sick kids that I now believe were probably being abused at home and this twisted their minds. I don't recall personal possesions ever being an issue other that some kids liked to steal other kid's possesions. Bicycles being one of the most common things stolen.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @tucsonaz

    We collected baseball cards (and still do!).

    Nice. Those are cool. And the men around you—did they just collect baseball cards too, or did they value and take pride in other things?

    I was told to fight back when bullied because then it would stop (they were right).

    I was just told to defend myself.

    I defended myself by speaking up for myself.

    The idea of fighting back against someone who's hitting you by talking seems weird to me, so I'm guessing you were verbally bullied. Have I got that right?

    Those things were reserved for Birthday or Christmas.

    Lucky. Having a bunch of siblings kind of cuts down on the gifts a kid gets, you know? I guess your dad never had to give you advice regarding something someone else had, wouldn't give up, and wasn't available to you elsewhere.

    Then why the heck does it always seem to be about money, or some sports fan's violent identification with a losing team, or....

    Not all attacks involve money.

    No, indeed. But they do all typically involve something understandable, and aren't just random violence on the lines of "he coughed so I killed him" or "I don't like gingers"—that strikes me as more psychopathic than average.

    @UKGuy: Like that. Just walking up and punching you in the face for no reason; that's the kind of thing I have no experience with.

    And yeah, I don't think that's normal either. It sure wasn't when I was growing up (nor now that I'm an adult). "A lifetime's worth of patriarchal conditioning that it's okay to assault men over the most trivial of reasons" is not something I ever received.

    I'm very curious about that kind of boyhood.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    @DaringSprinter this is a fascinating thread so far..... I am lurking.... 🧐

    I found it interesting about your awareness of income stuff. I felt very similar. We didn't have ten kids. We had three. My dad owned his own Motor shop. He rebuilt race car/high performance engines etc. I never worried that I wouldn't have a roof over our heads or that we would have to sleep in our car so I never thought of myself as poor. And if you're not poor... Doesn't that make you middle class? I know there's a ton of debate about this whole thing.... so I'm not going to pretend to know anything concrete. THIS was interesting though..... I don't think I ever heard working class or blue collar as something that would've described our family. We only bought clothes at the thrift store or got hand me downs. For Christmas I would usually ask for a NEW pair of special, trendy, Nike's or Levi's. Even though we had government cheese and I got a job at 13 in order to help pay for the bills once in awhile.... I felt like we had plenty of money compared to other kids at my school. I never FELT poor. And I always heard.... "You can have whatever you want, you just have to work super hard to get it."
    After your spoiler.... I had to think through a few things as well.
    In order to find out where, GOBankingRates conducted a study, analyzing the 200 largest U.S. cities in terms of the growth in middle-class incomes, households and businesses and industries employing them. But, what is considered “middle class”? Middle class is ultimately based on income, with educational achievement and status being secondary factors. According to Pew Research, middle-class incomes are those that are two-thirds to double the national median. This is crucial because it demonstrates how being middle class actually shifts from place to place.

    Currently Colorado (since you were in Grand Junction before this)
    2-person family middle-class income range: $51,695.19 to $154,314
    3-person family middle-class income range: $57,772.76 to $172,456
    4-person family middle-class income range: $67,509.20 to $201,520
    In my Sociology class I also saw that very few people ever find a way to the next level of household income than they were raised in. VERY interesting stuff.

    Its really "fun" "cool" "neato" to see you and Zwei having such interesting heart to heart connections. Thank you for sharing part of your journey in this online world.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter
    edited February 2022

    @sillysassy

    Aw, shucks. You're welcome. And thanks for the extra data!

    Also, even if this thread dies, it might revive in... about two weeks from now. So keep an eye out for that, all you lurkers.

  • [Deleted User]DeadGirlWalking (deleted user)

    As a sociology graduate, I'm finding this fascinating.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited February 2022

    There is also a meanness in this world that is perpetrated by both sexes against anybody. I have seen a woman backhand an old man that was a cashier at a grocery store and tell another person that she did it because she can. I saw one boy around 14 perform the “ever seen a match burn twice?” magic trick on a six year-old boy. It was funny to him. Sometimes, there is no rhyme or reason. People can be cruel.

    But then there is conditioning. I will start a thread at some future date regarding the tribal violence aspects of living in military housing during wartime without certain parents present. How kids take on an idealized warrior persona and act out what they perceive of glorious combat—because in that bubble it is all glorious when you are scared half to death when you see a black car with personnel in full formal dress uniforms and they happen to slow down in front of your house. All we ever did was play war. In hindsight the concept is sick and animalistic. We shot BB guns at each other, sliced each other with glass (scars to prove it), threw premature pine green pine cones with full force at each other’s faces, and if a fight broke out, you were told to go finish your business. “Weakness” was not allowed.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @FunCartel

    There is also a meanness in this world that is perpetrated by [all] sexes against anybody. ... Sometimes, there is no rhyme or reason. People can be cruel.

    I know antisocial personality disorder exists. I just didn't think it was normal.

    But then there is conditioning. I will start a thread at some future date regarding the tribal violence aspects of living in military housing during wartime without certain parents present.

    That seems like the kind of thing I'm interested in! I'll keep an eye out for that thread. Thank you.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    Meanness isn’t contingent upon a disorder. People do impulsive ugly things when they otherwise wouldn’t. The kid who did the magic trick is a nuclear scientist now and one of the nicest guys you could meet. One hateful act does not necessarily define your life or who you are. He even said he doesn’t know why he did it. He thought it was cute at the moment. He regrets it now.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @FunCartel: So it wasn't even normal for them. I'm glad to hear it.

  • tucsonaztucsonaz

    Nice. Those are cool. And the men around you—did they just collect baseball cards too, or did they value and take pride in other things?- We did as a hobby because it was (and still is) oyr passion.

    The idea of fighting back against someone who's hitting you by talking seems weird to me, so I'm guessing you were verbally bullied. Have I got that right?- Not weird it all. It's all psychology. Bullies bully people they think who are weak. If you stand up to bullies they will normally move on to another person.

    Lucky. Having a bunch of siblings kind of cuts down on the gifts a kid gets, you know? I guess your dad never had to give you advice regarding something someone else had, wouldn't give up, and wasn't available to you elsewhere.- I wouldn't call myself "lucky". I know a lot of people that got a lot more than me. I bought my own things with my own money, so no.

    No, indeed. But they do all typically involve something understandable, and aren't just random violence on the lines of "he coughed so I killed him" or "I don't like gingers"—that strikes me as more psychopathic than average.- There are thousands of unprovoked, random attacks every year.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @tucsonaz 💯 No matter how bad you might think you have it, there is always someone that would give a body part or two to be in your situation.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter
    edited February 2022

    @tucsonaz

    And the men around you—did they just collect baseball cards too, or did they value and take pride in other things?

    We did as a hobby because it was (and still is) our passion.

    So... baseball cards only. The boys and men in your childhood only valued and took pride in baseball cards. Weird, but okay. Boyhoods different from mine were what I was looking for.

    The idea of fighting back against someone who's hitting you by talking seems weird to me, so I'm guessing you were verbally bullied. Have I got that right?

    Not weird at all. It's all psychology. Bullies bully people they think who are weak. If you stand up to bullies they will normally move on to another person.

    So a kid punches you in the face, knocks you down, starts kicking you—but you say things to him as he's beating you up, and that convinces him that you're not weak, so he moves on to hitting someone else.

    Your childhood was very different from mine. From any I've ever heard of, actually! It's fascinating.

    I guess your dad never had to give you advice regarding something someone else had, wouldn't give up, and wasn't available to you elsewhere.

    I bought my own things with my own money, so no.

    Lucky. Man, I would've given a great deal to have been able to get my grubby little fingers on as much as a quarter a week, most years. It's tough getting money for lawn-mowing and leaf-raking when most people do it themselves.

    There are thousands of unprovoked, random attacks every year.

    And millions of people. It only takes one in every hundred or so to do a lot of damage. Are those relatively few violent criminals normal? Is it really standard for people to believe that it's okay to assault men over the most trivial of reasons? Do most people really think that?

    The idea is a strange one to me.

    @FunCartel: Agreed. Far as I can tell, no matter who you are there's always someone luckier and someone unluckier than you!

  • tucsonaztucsonaz

    @FunCartel

    No matter how bad you might think you have it, there is always someone that would give a body part or two to be in your situation.- I didn't have a bad childhood. I just don't think it should be ingrained in children that they are "lucky" to get a gift at Christmas.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @tucsonaz I know you didn’t. I was agreeing with your post in general.

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