I appreciate those who see the nuance/deeper meaning of what I was trying to say.
I wrote my post at 3AM (on my phone; not the best writing space), "inspired"/"motivated" after reading another post here, so apologies if my original post isn't very well stated. It's hard to know exactly what people are going to say in response; like if I knew how people would pick at my title/main question the way they have, I would have worded it differently. But the main message is still there, and those who get it, get it.
When I say "most men", I'm not definitively trying to argue for "most" men. I can't know that, that's impossible. I'm referring to people's experiences (@Sheena123 has literally stated that in this thread, so there's one example right here - there are others) when they say that most of their interactions are like I describe.
I definitely question people who say that people who share those experiences may be cherry-picking/being selective in their report. Sure, we are more likely (in human nature) to report negative experiences, but I also don't just doubt someone reporting much more negative experiences than positive ones just because of that. It is possible, and sounds very plausible on this site or on dating websites. (thank you @MissAdventurous for making this point much better than I can as I wrote this)
I realize that asking "why" isn't really helping anyone, because as like the third or so poster said (and I agreed with), we will never know why, or have a good reason to know why. I guess I don't know what to ask overall, but raising the point seems important. (At the time of writing, I wanted to ask a "question"; maybe I didn't need to in the first place). I have been told privately that people are happy I raised this, even if my surface level message isn't 100% clear.
I also agree with the point that not doing those bad things - doing the bare minimum - doesn't make me wonderful or above expectation, and I hope I didn't sound like that in my post. I wanted to say (but didn't know how to say very well at the time of writing) that like, I am totally flawed in other ways (like "I don't necessarily know how to make good conversation", and other things I probably don't know of myself yet because I haven't had many experiences), but it still upsets me that so many other people do so many worse things than just not being a good conversationalist or something. That's the main point I think I'm trying to say, in regards to comparing myself to other guys online. (Thank you @sunnysideup and others for talking about this)
@MissAdventurous I think they believe you and others, they just put it in a different box. It is willful compartmentalization and men are very good at it when it comes to empathy, sympathy and desires. But by being willful about it it becomes criminal and somewhat evil as they do it on purpose and act befuddled that you can’t do the same. But there is hope I guess because they can also stop because they chose to put it in a box. But that requires the choice of change.
@Rosinante47 It's not just a broad generalization when women only make 87 cents to every dollar that a man makes.
More stats:
"An estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male."
"1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted). About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime."
Now can we recognize that this is a systemic issue, not individual cases, and stop interrogating women like they have to prove that they're not liars or anti-men?
Yes it happens to women more than men, no the women aren't inviting this (rape culture), and this is not just a broad generalization or an attempt to start a gender war.
Rather than defending themselves, men should try to understand these inherent dangers and call out men who participate.
I would think that the reason anyone would behave in an unempathetic, and degrading manor would be due to mental health issues. I also believe that cuddling places us in a situation where we know that a man may become aroused. This means that we are placing ourselves more at risk for inappropriate sexual advances. I don't believe people are totally good or bad. They are human and that can be messy at times. Not that this gives people a right to violate boundaries that are set by this website and the other cuddler. The temptation to do so should be considered though before choosing to cuddle and it shouldn't be a surprise to someone if it happens.
@pty1999 Well said and I agree with a lot of what you said BUT if a man knowingly crosses boundaries after having them stated to him then that is not mental illness, that is sexual assault precipitated by his wants being rejected and resorting to forcefulness. In other words—feeling entitled to another’s body wholesale. Humans are messy but sometimes that mess is a shit show of evil.
Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.
To reword: not all men commit sexual assault, but nearly all people that commit sexual assault are men.
Doesn't this affect the hearts of the non-sexual assault men?
Someone posted women only make 87 cents to every dollar a man makes is not correct. Because it’s factoring in all jobs. Men work in professions that earn more. So it’s apples to oranges and not oranges to oranges. If applied to equal jobs there’s a much smaller gap
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/02/the-equal-pay-day-factoid-that-women-make-78-cents-for-every-dollar-earned-by-men/
Sorry didn’t mean to go off topic. @Sheena123 that really sucks to get such stupid and rude emails. Hopefully all banned right away!
@supadupa You weren’t off topic. You were providing context. Numbers mean nothing without context.
@CuddleWho
I have the flu and am poking fires. Sorry for the bad mood.
@cylee1180 respectfully no, the title of this post is: ‘ Why do (most) men do awful things on these sites?’
And if I’m wrong, somebody is lying in their karmas. So it is either not “most” of the experiences, or it is, and if it is than why keep going to that restaurant where chances are 7 out of 10 times you will get food poisoning…
Point is, we are all human, there’s also this weird idea on the threads where only guys get aroused (I swear this is not directed at no one here, but someone made the comment and it reminded me), The possibility of woman and man both getting aroused is equally the same, that’s not even up for debate, woman aren’t these creatures put on earth for the pleasure of men, they get equally aroused as well … the thing is we are all supposed to be adults plain & simple … does not give any one the right to violate someone or “try” their luck or push boundaries…
In the end, I fully respected and understand the statistics you bring up and they are not to be disputed, they are facts, my issue is more with guys trying to justify the reason why they can’t connect with enthusiats.
@supadupa "Someone posted women only make 87 cents to every dollar a man makes is not correct. Because it’s factoring in all jobs. Men work in professions that earn more. So it’s apples to oranges and not oranges to oranges. If applied to equal jobs there’s a much smaller gap"
Ah. Thanks for responding. So, now it's men that are more capable? Let's see.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Entertainment/pay-gap-men-women-hollywood-growing/story?id=49376405
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.codecademy.com/resources/blog/gender-pay-gap-in-tech/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/30/these-5-industries-have-the-biggest-gender-pay-gapsheres-why-.html
Thanks for pointing out the discrepancy about averaging wages across all industries: now we know that 87 cents to the dollar is optimistic!
@MissAdventurous
You seem to be responding to statements that no one actually made -- as far as I can tell no one said that pros don't receive inappropriate messages, and no one claimed that the fact that not every pro posts on the forum is evidence this doesn't happen much. Who specifically were you responding to?
@cylee1180
nearly all people that commit sexual assault are men.
I've been sexually assaulted by several women from this site. These were not situations in which I felt unsafe, and they didn't cause me emotional distress, but they did happen. There also seems to be a steady stream of women in the US being convicted of child sex abuse, although I don't know the numbers. I am very aware that sexual assault is a problem women deal with a lot more than men, but I am skeptical that one can really say "almost all" people that commit it are men.
I think when we want others to take seriously the problems we care about we sometimes say things that we think support our point, which ultimately make our point weaker and turn people against us.
If you had just said, "Sexual assault committed by men is a serious problem," no sane person could argue with you. But since you said, "nearly all people that commit sexual assault are men," it immediately invites eye-rolling and argumentation, and it makes one feel that your objective is not actually to discuss a real problem, it's to demonize men and deify women.
Similarly with OP's title "why do (most) men do awful things..." Again, it invites argument and it seems like OP is not actually trying to discuss or solve a problem; he's just trying to criticize men to win points with women. (Which actually seems to work fairly well on this forum, but in my experience, usually works poorly in real life.)
@CuddleWho I am definitely not here to "score points with women". I do criticize men who do those things because those actions are terrible; I mention my own reasons for thinking about it to be truthful in that it's not a purely selfless notion, coming ftom me, but It doesn't mean that I'm talking about it because that's the goal. This statement immediately makes me write off whatever else you say.
For what it's worth, I've "scored more points" with other men, not women, who have talked to me privately about this.
@Gibstack I never thought you were trying to score points. I thought you were more thinking aloud
"you seem to be....."
Yawn. I said El Fin. 👍👍👍
Take it whatever way you need. People with basic understanding on what's around them can figure it out on this site and in the real world what that means, is your own thing. FFS. 😆
Knock yourself out. I could care less if you or anyone else is obtuse about what I just said. 🙌
Good Day.
@CuddleWho Sorry that happened to you.
I would call 99% "almost all." There are exceptions to the rule, but that's just it: exceptions to the rule.
I don't have to worry about living on the first floor, walking at night, or what I wear to a party.
"Similarly with OP's title "why do (most) men do awful things..." Again, it invites argument and it seems like OP is not actually trying to discuss or solve a problem; he's just trying to criticize men to win points with women. (Which actually seems to work fairly well on this forum, but in my experience, usually works poorly in real life.)"
There are few moments in life that a mic drop happens. This is one of them.
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-millennial-women-earn-more-than-men-16-cities-2022-3?amp
@supadupa
Thanks for article! Also from the article:
But the pay gap is still here While these earnings may buck the longstanding trend of women earning less, the pay gap is still persistent. "From a regional perspective, metropolitan areas in the Midwest tend to have wider gender wage gaps among young workers," the author of the report wrote. "Young women working full time, year-round in Midwestern metros earn about 90% of their male counterparts." It's no secret that women are, on the whole, paid less than men. March 15 was Equal Pay Day, which marks how many more days women would have to work to earn what men made in 2021. The pay gap is even wider for women of color. For instance, Black women earn 64% of what non-Hispanic white men earn.
But the pay gap is still here While these earnings may buck the longstanding trend of women earning less, the pay gap is still persistent.
"From a regional perspective, metropolitan areas in the Midwest tend to have wider gender wage gaps among young workers," the author of the report wrote. "Young women working full time, year-round in Midwestern metros earn about 90% of their male counterparts."
It's no secret that women are, on the whole, paid less than men. March 15 was Equal Pay Day, which marks how many more days women would have to work to earn what men made in 2021. The pay gap is even wider for women of color. For instance, Black women earn 64% of what non-Hispanic white men earn.
There are 19,495 cities in the US. So maybe 16 out of 19,495 is not bad.
Also, the article fails to address an issue that you stated originally in the first statistic that we discussed: an overall averaging of pay across industries. Also it doesn't address: a break down of norms in different industries, and other factors such as gender ratio, revenue generated in each city, number of college grads, if there are some industries that might be more women-dominated in those cities, etc.
All in all, a close look at the numbers and current information will conclude that the gender pay gap is in fact still present. Thanks!
@CuddleWho - I don' think perception isn't the issue. The things that some (certainly not most) men write to @Sheena123 (and probably most other pros) art things that nobody should be subjected to. Some of those messages are not only a violation of the site rules, but may even be illegal. In most states, soliciting for prostitution is a crime, and that's exactly what some of those creeps were doing.
I don't know for certain, But I strongly suspect that pros get more of this crap than do enthusiasts. Some (I hesitate to call them men) as___les seem to believe that they are entitled to receive whatever they imagine that they are paying for.
@Sheena123 I wonder if adding a statement such as the following , might help, or if it's just too much. "I offer platonic cuddling, and nothing more. Any offer to pay my fee, in exchange for anything of a sexual nature is called 'soliciting for prostitution.' It is a crime in this state, and will be referred to the proper authorities." If nothing else, it should convince them that you mean what you say.
@GreatHornedOwl I do have it throughout my very long profile stating I’m platonic, non sexual, no sexy time, happily married and any other way to say “don’t come at me with sexual stuff”
I even had to add “don’t ask me to be in lingerie or a swimsuit or nude” because they asked for it way too many times…. Like I said, these men aren’t dumb. They are just perverts who don’t have respect for boundaries.
Thank you for your kind words.
And everyone else that has jumped in to help me make these points clear. I think there are just too many ppl who refuse to understand what happens to women without making it like a competition. If this was such a big issue for men as well, then make a thread about it, talk about mens mental health and bond over transgressions women have caused you.
I’ll add this: I have not yet met one woman or feminine presenting person who was ok with being grabbed at. Out of all the men I’ve had in my life, only a very small percentage would have been upset about being grabbed at or sexually objectified. Almost all the men (and yes, I said “almost all!”) have told me they would be turned on or enjoy the “sexual objectification or grabbing”…. Big difference right?
Any man that truly sees how big of an issue this is for women, thank you for carrying on the conversation. This isn’t something that should be swept under the rug. We all know the rules. We are tired of these men playing dumb. We all know the rules. Keep talking about it. Keep making it known that women aren’t yet equal. We aren’t there yet but if we can keep the conversation going, eventually women in the future might have a bit more freedom. If anyone immediately feels angry and wants to spout arguments, just stop…. And open your eyes. You get touched once in a blue moon or get sexually objectified and it’s sucks. This happens to most women almost daily. Please help stop this.
I think I am holding a leaking gasoline canister over a fire here, but someone mentioned political correctness, and it made me wonder... Some women, assuming they are workers of a sexual nature and are using CC, is also a part of the problem and fanning the flames that we speak of.
Both genders would be making this situation worse and by proxy, encouraging it. I am also wondering if the men in question are misinterpreting the word "Pro" as meaning something else?
I came to this site, not looking for pro's (of any nature) nor conspiracies.
Virtual cuddles to all the good people of CC!
@Sheena123 - I know that you have that all over your profile. I've read it. However, you have not warned them that they may be about to commit a crime, and that it will be reported. Threatening them might be more effective than merely telling them.
As an example, the California prostitution law, Penal Code section 647(b), makes it illegal to "engage in, agree to, offer, or seek sexual services in exchange for money or other compensation. Soliciting for prostitution means to offer or accept money or other compensation for sex." The law is similar in most other states.
These men agreeing to pay your fee, and are requesting that you perform sexual acts in exchange for sexual acts. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that they have violated this law, and thus have committed a felony. If nothing else, thing of the fun that you could have by scaring the hell out of a few of the.
@GreatHornedOwl lol! I would nothing more than to have them shaking in their boots. The only issue is I travel and cuddle in different stars and countries so I don’t think it applies everywhere. I look at my profile and all I see is “don’t do this” “don’t do that” and I just shouldn’t have to do that. It’s not welcoming and I hate that my profile doesn’t seem warm and kind and inviting anymore… at least not the way I want it to be.
I simply state everywhere and during our public meet before the cuddle that I’m platonic. I take their money upfront before the cuddle. If they try anything, my hubby is on standby. He goes bye bye and I keep the money. So far, I haven’t had to do that. Cross your fingers gets and toes for me.
@Sheena123 regarding your post above, all very good points and I agree. Problem is, men work differently to women, men WANT to know that they are sexually attractive, as a man, I cannot speak for women, but I think many women have had less trouble seeking sex when they want it.
The male drive to populate (or at least know that they could with a level of effort) is a strong one. This does not however, justify harming another person.
Of course, this is complicated by women allowing (and in some cases desiring) to have pain inflicted upon them
Edited. [-Sid]
Not all women like this and some men are not comfortable with this.
Sadly, some do, and these questions come up - what brings them to the surface is anybody's guess.
Ultimately, this still comes down to abuse of a system put in place to protect the members of this site.
Sorry for the double post.
@Warmlyhearted - 1. "Problem is, men work differently to women, men WANT to know that they are sexually attractive, as a man." Speak for yourself. Lol. 2. Wildly inappropriate example and terrible context. 3. Do you have problems recognizing social cues? If yes, then I apologize, if not, then try to think and understand social context before posting. 4. "Of course, this is complicated by women allowing (and in some cases desiring) to have pain inflicted upon them." You have trouble processing others' consent and boundaries?
Thank you.
I have a loud voice and many opinions and lamentations to argue and blog about!!!! You shall be silenced and quiver as I type my words!!!
I just was feeling left out as my brain will not allow me to debate right now, but it senses loud noises and rhetoric so it wants to play
This thread took a turn.
@cylee1180 I apologize, but I feel what I have said had been taken out of context. I refer to what has been discussed in circles of higher education, things I have read (accuracy of things read is up for dispute... Some of these books are probably quite dated at this point - and no, I do not have this material on hand for reference). I was certainly not speaking for myself and did not mean to offend anyone by my post.
As for social cues. I kinda get the hint I am not wanted here in this discussion due to wildly inappropriate examples and terrible contexts.
And NO I definitely DO NOT have issues processing another's consent and boundaries.
You're most welcome.