@geoff1000 i have my call tomorrow with the doctor my results came in Friday. They say you should have short term immunity at least until next season? I’ll find out tomorrow.
Overall , I’ve never turn Dow a pro. unless things could not be worked out., such as location, time, etc. I enjoy the cuddling experience.
@xandriarain You say that “C. Use no face protection and just hope that no one we see has the virus and put ourselves in a very high risk situation.”
What is your estimate of that very high risk situation?
For example, insurance companies estimate that the chances of getting into a car accident during a 1,000-mile trip are 1 in 36.
When flying, the chances of an airplane crash are 1 in 8,000.
CDC estimates that about 30 million out of 360 millions of US population (on average, each year) may get the flu, that means the chances are 1 in 12.
And the chances of a shark attack are 1 in 3.7 million.
Speaking about the flu, we all may carry the flu viruses every year, and only people with a suppressed immune system (even vaccinated) have that 1 to 12 chance to develop the real flu symptoms. If one’s immune system is not compromised, the flu will never happen.
@Ironman294 I would be curious what he says, but the fact is that they don't know yet. I've even read that there are instances of people who already had it getting it again, some worse the second time. This is a completely new virus, they only know what they have experienced so far. There are areas doing antibody testing on large numbers of people specifically for the purpose of studying what that means by seeing what happens to them moving forward. The world is basically a group of lab rats. 😞
@FunCartel A lot of businesses have stopped, but they/we all must find a way to mitigate risk moving forward. This has been my life for over two years. The need hasn't left, I am still in demand, why do I need to quit my business? I need to find a way to get from now to when it's safe to return and/or find a way to lower the risk.
Being close heightens the risk, but the fact that it's one-on-one lowers it. The amount of time of a session raises the risk, but good air circulation lowers it. Etc.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2ZFd4AZuM3_xywLjvhsnfTIAyp5xoMMYRFBf7arnnnqAO5tJV5noeNtXg
If I am seeing people, the ideal is that my clients are engaging in only minimum risk activities for two weeks prior (and suggested for two weeks following). For example, being in an office building five days a week with 100 other people is probably the worst thing you can do. This is a human biological need that hasn't gone away. The questions is, for people who are at the point who really need it, what are they willing to do to make a session possible, and what am I willing to do?
If something happened that made eating food risky, we wouldn't survive for very long just saying "well, don't eat." That is an extreme example with a shorter timeline, but physical contact and connection is still a need. We can't just not do this "forever." Eventually, the emotional cost is going to exceed the risk.
You say the risk is death, but the likelihood of that depends on how bad your location is and it's lowering every day as the treatment continues to improve. I'm still at the point where I'm concerned about the long-term effects of the virus, but I can't be afraid forever. There will come a day when either life has to move on or it gets better.
It's not that I don't care about people or myself, but this is my purpose in life. Healthcare workers are dying from their exposure in their line of work, but they continue to do it because they love it and want to help, even though there is risk. For as long as I and my service are wanted and needed, I will want to continue, and so I need to have a plan at some point.
It's not starting today. But hopefully soon... 😞
*Adding to the risk assessment, all professionals are different also. I am full-time on the road, have clients in different states, so that heightens the risk. But with my lower expenses and greater travel time, I have very few clients I see over a two week period. So seeing me is a lot less risky than seeing a professional who has multiple clients all day every day. My risk assessment for myself doing this work includes the knowledge that if you gathered everyone I would see in a two week period, we would still be within the "groups under ten" guidelines. 🤷 If everyone in that group helps mitigate their individual exposure prior to the meeting and I'm not going to places like NYC, the risk is relatively low. I am only going to see people I wholly trust to do their part. I'm still working on figuring out how to most safely move forward, but those are some pieces of my thoughts.
Some of you can’t read. I didn’t say you should quit your business, but if you are doing an either-or scenario then it is selfish to continue to cuddle in person given that A. There are asymptomatic people, B. We do not know much about the antibodies yet, C. Cuddling is not social distancing. I am saying given that, you should refrain for now. I mean, most states have not allowed nail salons or massage therapists to return to work, and for good reason. I love how people want everyone to social distance and stay home for the public health until the sacrifice winds up on their doorstep, then the rationalizations begin. Risk assessment for massage therapists doesn’t exist in most states because they are not allowed to open yet—the same should go for professional cuddlers.
@FunCartel You literally said "A pro cuddler can always find another line of work..." Maybe you didn't mean it to cause the response it did, but please don't say I can't read. 🤷
But I am not talking about now. You are correct that maybe if someone needs to do something NOW, they should find something else. The original post is asking how to best safely return, not necessary now, but how and when. He literally said "once the pandemic is over." That's what I was talking about...
How about : sitting outdoors on the ground, back to back, with a side wind, while video calling on mobile phones ? There is physical contact, so it is true cuddling ; but facing away must be much less risky than facing towards. The phones should probably be silent.
I may have referenced it before, but when I started firearms training, the instructor said, "Imagine how you would feel, just after you accidentally shot and killed your best friend".
Most severe cases of, and deaths from, Covid-19 ; are now identified as such, because the patient is tested to guide their treatment. Tests for antibodies are now available, which say if a person had it some weeks ago.
The combination means it will soon be possible to know if our behaviour was likely to have caused someone to become ill. The concern of catching the virus, and the concern that one may be the probable cause of someone else catching it ; must collectively spoil the experience.
@FunCartel its rather presumptuous of you to say that a cuddler can just find another line of work given the current economic climate we are in. Yes I could go work in grocery store or a warehouse and put my health at risk but I would be making a fraction of what I was making before and would not be able to pay all of my bills. I just bought a brand new car in February so I could have safe and reliable transportation to get to my clients who often live far away. Do you think I can make my car payments working in a grocery store? I am working on starting a business unrelated to cuddling but businesses take time to become profitable. It’s not like we can just find a new line of work overnight. Also you equate cuddling to being dead. This virus has at least a 99% survival rate for this virus for your average, healthy person. It will have to be an individual choice and people will have to asses their own risk factors and decide if they are willing to take the risk to cuddle. I have sacrificed my livelihood for over two months now mainly for the greater good (I am very low risk). At a certain point we have to put our own survival first unless you want us to all to starve and become homeless. Even salons and massage therapy needs to be able to reopen. All businesses need to reopen at some point soon and try to be as safe as possible in doing so. All businesses are essential and necessary to for those businesses owners and employees to survive, and for the economy.
@Technhap I did specify that I lived near the epicenter of the virus so my chance of encountering someone who has the virus is much higher than in other parts of the country. When I say high risk I mean the risk of catching the virus is high not that the risk of dying is high. I am personally not concerned about dying from this virus because I am young and healthy. However some of my clients are higher risk or live with someone who is high risk and I would feel terrible if someone wound up in the hospital or died because I unknowingly gave the virus to them. At the same time I need to earn a living. Like @ubergigglefritz I am planning on being choosy about who I see and stick to people who are being careful and have few opportunities to catch the virus.
@xandriarain I would be VERY careful taking too much comfort from "survival" rate. This virus is much more complex and tricky than just living vs dying. I am not high risk, but I REALLY don't want to get this untilthey have the treatment more figured out yo reduce the impact it has on your body or any long-term effects.
https://www.consumerreports.org/coronavirus/recover-from-covid-19-what-its-like/
Also, there are many instances of young healthy people having heart attacks with the coronavirus. It does a number on your body. Your risks are lower if you're healthy, but it's still not zero, and even if you live, you might have a long road to recovery.
I don't think I would be near as close to being ready to start up again if I were up in the NY/NJ vicinity. 😞
A lot of people are taking this experience as a lesson in expenses and planning. Could you have gotten a more affordable car? I had a Subaru Impreza and it was a great car and pretty inexpensive (I have no car currently, just my RV). Did you file for the PUA and $600 extra payment in your state? I feel zero pressure to start sooner than it is safe to do so. If that doesn't cover your expenses, are there things you can do to reduce your expenses for the time being? Have you talked to your loan bank about deferring payments? Your mortgage company or landlord? There are so many options thanks to the frankly excessive government aid going on right now.
But I wish you good luck. I spent many years focusing on reducing my expenses and it is really paying off right now. Money is freedom. You can either make more (can be difficult and depends on many factors) or you can require less (pretty easy and near completely in your control).
@geoff1000 I knew that, but somehow your post was a healthy reminder, ha. I think I will offer outside, sitting, holding hands, not face to face sessions at a discount on my next trip. 😊 Will see what people are interested in...
@ubergigglefritz. I have lowered my expenses, all I can, I tried to get PUA but have no way to get it with a cash income. I have tried to push the virtual sessions but its just not enough to survive. I have extensively thought about my options and I am backed into a corner. The good news is the case numbers in NY, NJ and PA have all gone way down. Also they were incorrectly counting positive antibody tests towards the number of new cases so the number of new cases could be lower. I think for most people complications are pretty rare especially if you don’t have to be hospitalized. I know a few people who are pretty sure they had it and they are doing fine now. Being in my 20s and having no underlying conditions the chance of needing to be hospitalized or having serious complications is very low. Most people who did need hospitalization had underlying conditions. My chance of crashing my car and getting injured or dying is probably higher than ending up hospitalized with Covid. I am only going to cuddle people who either work from home or somewhere else where they are by themselves, and are not socializing outside their household unless 6ft apart etc. Life comes with risks and we cannot live in fear forever. Staying home and descending into poverty is a lot scarier to me than Covid.
Ok. Good luck. But I would talk to someone. There is no reason why you shouldn't qualify for PUA. Unless your state is doing something funky to reduce fraud with it. Or if you are completely operating "under the table", and thus working without any tax liability, I wouldn't take advantage of other people playing by the rules. 😕 You should be able to get it figured out though. The PUA is specifically for people who don't qualify for traditional unemployment, including the self-employed. If you do, just switch to operating with records and pay taxes next year. 😊 I don't know. You do you.
@ubergigglefritz the problem is I haven’t been cuddling long enough to have a tax record, I have also been making some money with virtual sessions so that could disqualify me.
It sounds like you don't know. I didn't have to provide any proof of income and I've still been working very small amounts each week. I get unemployment+600 every week. Sometimes some deductions if I made more than $50 up to my total unemployment portion. Anyway, good luck. I'm not getting the impression that you want another solution...
@ubergigglefritz I tried to file and was asked to upload proof of income. I consulted with several people who were more knowledgeable about the program than me and they all advised me not to file or didn’t know what to tell me. Eventually the unemployment money will run out and its not a good long term solution. We flattened the curve, the hospitals have empty beds, there is only so much we can do. At some point we have to stop hiding from the virus and try our best to coexist with it. The virus does not exist alone in a vacuum. We have to balance our survival needs with the need to keep the virus at bay. We have to go back to normal and just be as careful as we can be while doing so.
@ubergigglefritz I haven’t been out of college very long, am relatively new to cuddling, before that I was working in commission only sales and was ruined financially so I was just starting to recover when this pandemic happened. In a perfect world everyone would have a nice big savings account and multiple streams of income but for most of the world that isn’t the reality especially when you are just starting out in life. I was trying my best to pay down my credit cards and be financially responsible but I just didn’t have the time to be financially prepared for this pandemic no one saw coming. I think its unfair to condemn people who want to get back to work because they cannot afford to stay home any longer.
@ubergigglefritz You said “why do I need to quit my business?” Need is very different from can, which is what I said. Can implies choices, while need implies requirement. My whole thing is most states are not letting massage therapists and nail techs work yet and socially responsible pro cuddlers should fall under those requirements. Your risk assessment for intimate services which are very similar as far as proximity to people as massage therapists and nail techs is rationalization on your part because you have an agenda to continue work. It is not entirely safe yet. Three hours away from me a hair stylist that opened up early a couple of weeks ago has tested positive but she was asymptomatic. They are testing over 157 people she may have infected...some have come back positive already and who knows how many of those people unwittingly infected others at risk. I hope they pursue criminal charges if someone dies because of her selfishness.
You are not a doctor or even a virologist—you only think you are vigilant in your screening. Truth is, vigilance is social distancing and staying home if need be. Any pro that is entertaining cuddling in person right now is scratched off my list permanently for greed, selfishness and a contempt for the public’s health at large. I have contacted a couple of my favorites and they are locked down until further notice and I totally respect that and was glad to hear it. I thanked them for their thoughtfulness and I understand their sacrifice. If they said otherwise at this time I would probably never use them again.
@xandriarain I never equated cuddling with being dead. I equated cuddling right now with risking your life and the life of others. You said you are low risk. But that is making it about you. If you are asymptomatic you can spread it to people and you never know who you may ultimately be responsible for putting on a ventilator. I know it is a tough spot, but being a pro cuddler is a choice, not a right.
My feeling is that pro-cuddling is such a specialised occupation, that people who are good at it, couldn't find an occupation which used a fraction of their talent. I'm drawing a parallel with high-end professional golfing, which is very wel paid, but doesn't have many "transportable" skills.
As and when the lockdown eases, and the pro-cuddling market picks up, we'll probably find a lot of new people trying to start, and many not doing it very well. Karma will be important.
Thinking again about back to back outdoor cuddling ; most cuddle positions aren't face to face anyway, so that wouldn't lose much. Many of us have enjoyed cuddling in movie theaters, where one's ears and eyes are focused elsewhere ; and one "only" has the pressure and warmth and breathing movement of one's partner.
The Social Distancing rule seems to mean 6 feet between one's nearest points, but that isn't scientifically justified by risk of cough transmission ; it should also consider orientation and face-face distance. Unfortunately, a simpler rule is easier to administer.
@FunCartel "Your risk assessment for intimate services which are very similar as far as proximity to people as massage therapists and nail techs is rationalization on your part because you have an agenda to continue work."
What does that mean? What did I say which is not true? I am not working in person and have not since the start of March. I am looking at possibly going to head back on the road to work in three weeks. Obviously, if the situation doesn't look safe at that point, I won't be able to. Or I might have to adjust my services offered accordingly. At some point though, we're going to have to move forward. For me, that point comes after I feel confident in the treatment plans they have available. Before recently, doctors were basically just guessing. They're now coming out with treatments that have been shown to work. That is the improvement I was looking for and hope to see more of. Once treatments are known and available, the best I can do is be honest, do what I'm comfortable with, and allow others to do the same.
As far as my motivation, I have zero motivation financially, since the excessive unemployment is enough for me and I have very few expenses sitting still (good thing too, as I also had an unexpected $2,000+ emergency vet bill come up, ha, and a similar personal property tax bill 😆). My motivation is to be there for my clients who are in need of sessions. It's my responsibility to make them wait until it's safer, but at some point it will make sense to get back to it, and I need to be ready and have a plan for when that happens. 🤷
@geoff1000 Love your post. I was in the corporate world working as an actuary and pricing analyst for 12 years before quitting. A year later I found this. Boy is it true that I've never felt more fulfilled and appreciated for my heart and soul, my gifts I offer, my purpose. 💜 I don't know of anything else that can compare. Hopefully I will feel safe offering these services again soon. To not worry when hugging someone. It's like a dream. Not that long ago it was our reality. It's crazy. 😞
@xandriarain I apologize for any perceived judgment...
Here's the PA page with lots of information. It sounds like, similar to Virginia, if you don't provide proof of income, you receive the minimum allowable.
https://www.uc.pa.gov/COVID-19/CARES-Act/Pages/PUA-FAQs.aspx
"How will my weekly benefit amount be calculated if I don't provide proof of base period wages?
If an you do not provide proof of base period wages (calendar year 2019 wages), your weekly benefit amount will be reduced based on whichever is higher - the record of wages already on file or the minimum PUA weekly benefit amount.
You may submit additional documentation at any time during the Pandemic Assistance Period to substantiate wages earned or paid during your base period."
How long before you had to stop had you been working for yourself (not just cuddling)?
Also, since examples of those who will if include people who wouldn't have reportable income, it seems like that shouldn't be a roadblock.
"Individuals covered under PUA include the self-employed (e.g. independent contractors, gig economy workers, and workers for certain religious entities), those seeking part-time employment, individuals lacking sufficient work history, and those who otherwise do not qualify for regular unemployment compensation or extended benefits."
https://www.uc.pa.gov/unemployment-benefits/file/Pages/Filing-for-PUA.aspx
If you are at risk of not being able to afford your bills, I would try to find someone who has better answers than you have received. 😞
@ubergigglefritz The risk assessment comment was for someone else, not you. My apologies.
Listen folks just wear a mask and latex gloves and go on your merry way for some cuddling end of story .that way you and the cuddler can be safe as much as possible.and if you feel you shouldnt be wearing one then find a cuddler that agrees with your thinking simple and to the point.case closed
@toaskornot Count me as someone who disagrees with gloves. Gloves are completely useless in this circumstance. Just wash your hands. Both require not touching your face, so there is no other difference. We don't secrete viruses from our skin. And gloves would detract so much from a session with absolutely zero benefit. 🤷
@ubergigglefritz I think the science supports your point.
If someone coughed ( or by talking, "micro-coughed" ) on your hands, then you touched your face, that would transfer the virus, whether you were wearing gloves or not.
Gloves might be useful for someone with a hand skin condition, which made repeated aggressive washing difficult ; or, as you say, the 101+ other illnesses which can be transmitted or received, through the skin.
I don't know how long the virus can survive on the skin ; but it lasts well on hard, dry, surfaces, such as protective gloves.
I know most cuddle fans like skin-skin contact, but I've had plenty of good experiences well clothed. If the virus is still a problem as we come into winter ( and some States will be sooner than others ) ; outdoor cuddling, suitably protected from the elements by thick clothing, may be useful. When the weather is that cold, gloves and mouth coverings are normal ; as is cuddling together. The warmth of another person's body is much more noticeable, when the environment is cold.
Cold weather promotes the transfer of airborne viruses, but only because we typically huddle indoors. Outdoors, in cold dry air, transfer may be much less of a problem ; I'd like to see some research on that.
@geoff1000 I have had clients in the past bring up cuddling in a park or outdoor setting. Personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable cuddling outside unless it was in a private back yard or somewhere more secluded. I would feel quite awkward about people walking by while trying to cuddle in a park. I once simply went on a hike with a client in a park and this client is more than 30 years older than me and we got a lot of judgmental looks. It is sad that the world is this way but I really wouldn’t want to leave myself or my client vulnerable to the judgmental stares of strangers when trying relax and enjoy a cuddle session.
@geoff1000
Cuddling is personal. Doing it publicly would take that away.
If I would decide to do something other than cuddle, just to be with someone for awhile, I would rather go to ones place and watch a move or some television together for a few hours and pethapyest dinner together.
Perhaps with some light touching.