šŸ˜¶šŸ¤ØšŸ’“ Question to ponder.... Do you believe ALL human beings have VALUE?

sillysassysillysassy
edited January 2022 in General

Hello Cuddle Community!!!! After an amazing thread by @HogboblinZwei and all of the ensuing posts.... I wanted to try and put into practice some of the tips and suggestions about discussing an idea or opinion in a manner that can bring about lively conversation and an exchange of thoughts about meaningful things that doesn't dissolve into personal attacks.

@HogboblinZwei @Babichev @DaringSprinter and others mentioned

Criticizing ideas is NOT the same as criticizing the person

@JoyfulHeart said

One of the motivating forces in my life is curiosity, and the desire to learn. I've come to recognize that I learn more when I'm listening than I do when I'm talking.
As others have mentioned, there are many on this forum who welcome a healthy exchange of ideas

I am hopeful to hear all sorts of ideas about this and maybe we can separate our ideas from our identities and just practice healthy discussing so as to not lock up the thread

I'm not going to attach a poll or anything because I think in this instance it would narrow the field of perspectives. I can imagine that there will be a ton of different backgrounds and opinions on this subject.

Do you believe ALL human beings have VALUE?

Ā«13456

Comments

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    Value is subjective. "One man's trash is another man's treasure," right?

    So in order to answer the question I've got to have it completed. Do I believe all humans have value to... who? Me? Themselves? Neil Gaiman? Who?

    It can't be the universe, the universe doesn't value anything, you need consciousness for that. The question is incomplete.

    Do all humans have value to... who?

  • [Deleted User]cuddlebear4U48 (deleted user)

    This question exposes two viewpoints, one that says that we all evolved from some sort of cosmic soup which was a result of nothing blowing up into something, and that time and chance can create a masterpiece far above human intelligence. And the other is that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God. One says that there no intrinsic value and there is no soul. The other says that even though God has honored our sovereign will as he is sovereign, though we are in a state of rebellion against him, he values our souls so much that he sent his son to receive the just payment for our sins. There's no greater value placed on anything in the universe than our souls. I wish we could all treat each other with that same value.

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    Short answer: no
    Long answer: no. As long as there are human beings out there that purposefully abuse people for fun, whether it be abusing a spouse, a child or an animal, you have zero value. 100%

  • WriterGFWriterGF

    I have to agree with Sheena. I think all people are born of equal value, but that it is possible to forfeit that through your actions.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    Nobody here is mentioning who they think people are or aren't valuable to. Is the vagueness deliberate? Am I the only one here who doesn't know what standard of value is being used? Argh.

    Pretty much all people would be very valuable to farmers as fertilizer. To medical students as learning tools. To someone as an organ donor.

  • xandriarainxandriarain
    edited January 2022

    @Sheena123 I have to disagree with you. Even abusers probably have some value if you sell their organs on the black market. I would say a healthy human being could probably fetch you six figures if you break them up for parts. And even if a human being is not healthy you can be sure Pharma and nursing homes will turn them into a cash cow. Even if a person has a prisoner for-profit prisons make money off of their slave labor. In our modern capitalistic society there is a way to exploit and squeeze money out of just about anyone

    Disclaimer: before anyone gets offended, I donā€™t condone any of the above activities this is just my dark humor talking.

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    I guess using them for spare parts works, but I just canā€™t get past the fact that they are alive while a child is dead. I just immediately go to the thought ā€œyou raped or abused or killed a child. You donā€™t deserve to liveā€. I just canā€™t get past it. I personally would hate knowing I had a transplant put in me and it belonged to a child killer. Nah, still zero value in my mind.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited January 2022

    The answer is always yes and quite frankly, this community should be the first to say that as much as ā€œunconditionalā€ love is bandied about on this site. Those who abuse are usually A) victims of abuse, b) suffering from mental illness, C) have never known love or peace, or D) all the above. To out right say zero percent shows a lack of empathy. Again as we circle back to ideas vs identity, we should also try to understand behavior vs identity. Yes, the behavior is inexcusable, but the person can have value. I am tired of hearing about breaking the cycle of abuse while at the same time people say those who abuse are trash and have no value. That viewpoint is simplistic and only continues cycles of abuse.

    I think a better question to ask of this community is ā€œDoes unconditional love exist?ā€ Looking at some of the judgemental posts on this topic, the marriage topic and others I would say no. I myself can only think of a couple of people I would say I love unconditionally, but I bet there could be a situation where that could change. I think cuddlers on their profiles should strike the ā€œunconditional loveā€ phrase as I have seen some of those same people on the forum be dismissive of people. We are humans. We always fall short and as a result we all have flawed value. Just my opinion.

  • BabichevBabichev
    edited January 2022

    @cuddlebear4U48 - Iā€™m not sure where you got those two viewpoints.

    @sillysassy - Iā€™m with @DaringSprinter, Iā€™m not sure exactly what the question is asking.

    I suppose that I hold that all humans have some sort of intrinsic worth. Beyond that, the details get messy. My default is that all humans deserve respect but in practice some of them give up their right to that respect when they behave in heinous ways.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @DaringSprinter In your context everyone has value as organ donors, gene donors, and food. But I think we know that was not the question. The question @sillysassy was asking is do we have intrinsic value as a person. The fact that we have laws against killing means society has come to an agreement that yes, people have value.

  • sillysassysillysassy

    Omgosh... Yes @DaringSprinter you are right.... There needed to be more to the question. You said

    Nobody here is mentioning who they think people are or aren't valuable to. Is the vagueness deliberate? Am I the only one here who doesn't know what standard of value is being used? Argh.

    I wasn't trying to be vague. I was trying to leave room for people to discuss.

    As a definition.....
    valĀ·ue
    /ĖˆvalyoĶžo/
    Noun
    1. the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something:
    2. a person's principles or standards of behavior; one's judgment of what is important in life:

    Verb
    1. estimate the monetary worth of (something)
    2. consider (someone or something) to be important or beneficial; have a high opinion of:

    You brought up an important thought..... WHO are Humans valuable TO.

    Like you mentioned.... The universe doesn't have a consciousness so therefore cannot value anything.

    In rephrasing the question what if it was this

    Do you believe ALL human beings have VALUE to other humans intrinsically because they are a conscious being?

    This is so interesting.... I'm reading everyone's response now. Sorry for the initial frustration.

  • Mike403Mike403

    @Sheena123 - Child killers can still be fed to hungry wolves.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    Respect and value are two separate concepts. You can value a productive worker while not respecting their choices as a human.

  • Sheena123Sheena123

    @Mike403 Iā€™m all for that lol

  • sillysassysillysassy

    I love all the comments!!! Hmmmmmmm is it based on intrinsic or extrinsic value......

    SHOOT I have to go to an appointment.... I can't wait to read all this fun/interesting stuff tonight.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited January 2022

    Child killer or not, I am never down for a penalty of death. Too much of the Neanderthal thinking of you killed something which is against the law so I am now going to kill you just because those in power made a law to justify said retaliatory killing. I hope people are not teaching their kids that concept of you did this to me and now I am going to extract my pound of flesh. That kind of thinking is why our world is such a cruel place.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter
    edited January 2022

    @sillysassy: Ah, I see. Thanks. Yeah, I'd say all human beings have some kind of value to at least one other human being.

    @FunCartel: Intrinsic value is not a thing. Nothing carries its own value with it wherever it goes, without any conscious mind doing the valuing. Value is a subjective thing.

    So human life has value to humans, conscious beings have value to conscious beings.... Big surprises there.

  • Mike403Mike403

    I'd say lock them up in a Supermax prison, keep them in their cell 24 hours a day and feed them nothing but bread and water. Make them think about their crimes for awhile as they slowly rot away.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @DaringSprinter Then you do not value human life?

  • Mike403Mike403

    @FunCartel - If the Earth was conscious, it would be trying to shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @FunCartel: Did I say anything about my personal valuation of human life either way?

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited January 2022

    @DaringSprinter I was asking you a question pertaining to your assertion but I will reword it. Do you think humans should value human life?

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @Mike403 I agree if reality was a Disney cartoon.

  • TeamrocketTeamrocket

    I used to think I had no value.

    Then only just last week I experienced a lifechanging revelation. After touring through some odd foreign country I forget the name of, I woke up in a bathtub filled with ice, sutures in my side, and one less kidney weighing me down.

    And in that moment, I knew that there WAS someone out there who loved me. And it wasn't because I was a decent or in anyway respectable human being. No, it was because I had organs and blood in me that could be removed and sold on the black market.

    Life truly is beautiful.

  • DaringSprinterDaringSprinter

    @FunCartel: Another incomplete question. I think humans should value human life if their goal is to keep the species going as long as possible.

    And how does implying I don't value human life pertain to my statement that value is subjective?

  • Mike403Mike403

    Nobody and nothing has value other than what we give ourselves. I'm pretty sure the planet was doing just fine before we showed up.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel
    edited January 2022

    @DaringSprinter I see you were assigning value to my question beyond a simple yes or no. No implication was there at all. I could also be implying that you value life as equally as saying you donā€™t. So what is your answer to the original question I asked? Do you value human life? If so why? If not why?

    Edit: I see where you got it from. I said ā€œthen do you not value human life. I meant to say ā€œDo you value human life.ā€ Thatā€™s what I get for doing this during a conference call.

    I apologize

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @Mike403 Then intrinsic and extrinsic mean nothing as well. Value is only bestowed by individuals?

  • Mike403Mike403

    @FunCartel - We are not helping the planet in any way unless it needs more plastic for some reason. We are the most pollutant species that existed. We value other humans while we are still alive, but the planet will go on long after we are gone.

  • TheFunCartelTheFunCartel

    @mike403 I get that, but the planet is not sentient. I was asking your opinion of what you believe because you said there is no value other than what we give to another.

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