Society assumes that men are born with the will to aggress when it should assume we are born with the inherent will to connect. Healing the hearts of these men in the video requires a willingness to face the fact that our culture has required of them that they be divided souls. Healing also requires a willingness on their part to seek out people who will encourage and support their longing for connection.
Yes this is my reality, but with caveats.
Caveats: I have a friend who I would probably message but not call - I don't have her number. But she does not live in the same city or country, her time is 2 hours behind mine, she is always working and she is a night owl. So we don't skype that much. Like my friendship with her (9 months), a lot of my friendships are pretty new (2-3 months) but I think they have potential.
Main part: I think it is unavoidable. It is difficult for men to be part of society and develop meaningful relationships. There are many reasons for that:
May be my outlook is overly negative and yes, I am on therapy for that. But I don't know how else to look at these things. I can't even get diagnosed for depression - I have a capacity for joy only matched by 8-year olds. But when I think of my relationships with other people or how the world sees me - I feel pain....and may be a tiny bit of hope.
@zacto Some of the best reading I've done lately.
Yep. Definitely for me and I think most guys.
It’s our wives job to figure out why we are depressed without us saying anything at all. Why? Because we are guys. That’s just the way it is.
Call someone for what?
Thanks @achetocuddle !
💯
@zacto I largely agree with everything you said. I don’t think it’s negative, just realistic.
Only difference is the part where you said society doesn’t need many men - I think it does. It needs the to perform the hard and dangerous jobs that are necessary to keep modern society going, like construction, utility techs, etc. And struggling with emotions is common problem for everyone.
I agree with @sunnysideup that you have some points but these are not really facts. I find this line problematic:
, a man has to prove his worth, women don't have to.
Tell that to women entering traditionally male careers. Schools like MIT, Georgia Tech, and Purdue are still overwhelmingly male in engineering, math and technology which are the careers of tomorrow. In addition they do not expect the gender pay inequality to become even for another 136 years.
I think he is venting his frustration but projecting it onto a male/female dichotomy which is exaggerated. I do agree with him that women have more tools in the toolbox as far as social skills, but there are a lot of men who isolate themselves by choice rather than do the hard work of engaging people.
@FunCartel The pay for women in STEM is actually exceptionally good at the moment, along with chances for promotion and recognition. They do need to be tough, determined, and even a touch of ruthless just like the guys though, which may not be a common socialization.
@cde123 the Gender pay gap encompasses all fields and the 136 years to pay equality was announced this week as it was at 132 years two years ago but pay equality went backwards during the pandemic. Yes pay in STEM is good across the board but it is still male-dominated at the professional and higher education levels, so it doesn’t tilt the field much to make a difference in the 136 year projection.
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2021/04/01/stem-jobs-see-uneven-progress-in-increasing-gender-racial-and-ethnic-diversity/
Thanks, yeah, there is definitely a higher education issue. Many of the women in STEM I've met are foreign-born or educated. That's a great study you linked. In my experience companies are so careful about balancing pay at this point that women do well at each level, but the challenge is moving up into the executive and management ranks. That's improving though from what I can observe. Bad culture at companies does not help in terms of women dropping out.
Women seem to have some kind of affirmative action for hiring - an equivalent resume guy probably won’t get hired where a woman would. And most guys aren’t that ruthless in engineering though. The ones that are are more likely to get paid more.
There is a problem though that regardless of aggression level, people probably want to promote people like them and in engineering this is mostly guys.
I wouldn’t say this video is 100% true. Maybe 90% true but in those times i do have someone I’d talk to about what ever the issue is i share 20% of the issue. I’m a man Of a certain age and i don’t know how to share, to lean on or any of it. I try
A better way to put it. I don’t feel alone, i don’t feel nobody in my life cares, i know they do. But i don’t know how to share and I’m avoiding judgement. So that would lead me in most situations to feel like the video.
"Only difference is the part where you said society doesn’t need many men - I think it does. It needs the to perform the hard and dangerous jobs that are necessary to keep modern society going, like construction, utility techs, etc"
Nope. Women can do any job men can do. Your genitalia doesn't determine your ability or value in the workforce.
A successful and productive society needs both men and women. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Yes women can do many jobs men can do and men can do many jobs that women do. So everyone get back to work 😂
Doesn't sound very modern to me, really. During my career as a technician in the military, every task we had to perform could be performed just as well by a woman, and has. I remember the push-back about women serving in combat roles, but here we are... women serving with honor and distinction. We fail to remember that women HAVE filled these roles in various times and places in history, and we've hand-picked our history to enforce the gender-normative roles. 🤷
In my experience, I am not sure the issue of having someone to call when you are at your lowest is gender specific. I think it could be more related to the social environment in which one grew up. What are the emotional lessons one was taught in their nuclear family and extended social support system? Were the women encouraged to emote, or was everyone encouraged to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps?" I am thankful that at my lowest (junior year of college) I felt safe going to my parents and asking for help. Now, with my mother gone (now, the one person who I wish I could hug), father elderly and not of the same mind he used to be, and single, I find there are not many people with whom I can be completely myself without 1) their being overwhelmed because they feel they have to do something to "fit it" or 2) their also wanting something from me in return.
I never realized this but I agree and it made me cry 😢 I don’t have anyone
@TNNative People are individuals, of course. I do think that it's more common for women to be plugged into their "network" to unload emotional baggage, while men are generally less willing to display vulnerability. But perhaps the main thing to consider is regardless of gender, people too often find themselves outside of these channels. I am a person with a handful of close friends in far-flung places, and nobody in proximity to unload my stuff on. That seems to be my choice though. The rare occasions that I seek counsel of a friend, there's maybe 3 or 4 men, plus my life coach (a woman!), who I will lean on for advice and support. I sometimes call my brother-in-law, but seldom my sister. I suppose not all relationships require much regular contact to be stable and strong.
I have a court eunuch I confide in. Gender neutral listening has its privileges.
No, I can talk to my best Friend Pavan Kumar.
Let's see one person posts that society does not need a lot of men and then lists reasons why. Then another posts that yes society does need men to do certain jobs. Then several others post no it does because women can do all these jobs. Conclusion according to these posts: society doesn't need a lot of men. I guess feminist Camille Paglia was wrong when she said, after seeing all these brawny men doing all sorts of intense physically demanding and dangerous jobs, that yes indeed society still needs men. At least she was trying to at least justify the existence of men (imagine even having to do such a thing) but apparently she was misguided.
I wasn’t saying that women can’t do those jobs, but that by and large men do them, even in the most progressive of societies. Wartime would be an exception.
@FunCartel . You said this and I think there is a misunderstanding: "Tell that to women entering traditionally male careers. Schools like MIT, Georgia Tech, and Purdue are still overwhelmingly male in engineering, math and technology which are the careers of tomorrow. In addition they do not expect the gender pay inequality to become even for another 136 years."
I wasn't talking about jobs or employment in certain fields. Not everything is about jobs or money or paying taxes.
I was talking about belonging in society. Whats the point of making money when outside of the workplace, every social interaction reminds you that you dont belong or need to put in effort to the point of changing yourself to belong.
Thats why said" , a man has to prove his worth, women don't have to." Again, I wasn't talking about money or jobs. It was a poor choice of words on my part.
'Doesn't sound very modern to me, really. During my career as a technician in the military, every task we had to perform could be performed just as well by a woman, and has. I remember the push-back about women serving in combat roles, but here we are... women serving with honor and distinction. We fail to remember that women HAVE filled these roles in various times and places in history, and we've hand-picked our history to enforce the gender-normative roles. 🤷'
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
' I wasn’t saying that women can’t do those jobs, but that by and large men do them, even in the most progressive of societies. Wartime would be an exception.'
Again, no.
@zacto I understand what you are saying but I still disagree. Women have changed. I can remember when women’s lives were very circumscribed and it wasn’t that long ago. Women were required to be homemakers and cater to their spouses. If a woman wanted a career she could pick from nurse, teacher or go-go dancer. And a woman wanting only a career and no family was suspect. Men had all the control and no seeming need to prove themselves to anyone,
Women have options now and one of those options is to reject the traditional nuclear family and even males. Women still have to prove something depending on the situation…I just think that men perceive that they don’t because they conduct themselves more like men used to—with power and confidence. I think male egos have trouble dealing with rejection. Me, I like the new world. The pressure is off me to take care of everyone and make all the decisions. The onus is now on women as well. We may be anatomically different but we all have something to prove. We all fake it till we make it.
I also don’t buy the belonging in society argument. Women are isolated and cut off from many opportunities socially and financially if they are single mothers or impoverished. Their struggles are just as great as any man and they do struggle to belong,
It’s not that hard to see that with a little empathy.
If women want to go up on ladder in an emergency to fix utility lines in freezing cold wind and ice storms or go out on a fishing boat for days and be exposed to all kinds of weather and waves and sea creatures or push a lawnmower or work on roof twelve hours a day in 100 degree weather or use dangerous equipment cutting down trees or be out in all weather collecting the trash, more power to them. Not saying they can't do this only that it's still majority men doing it. We can talk of societal manufactured gender roles all we want but at this stage in society there is no reason why more women wouldn't be doing these jobs unless they don't want to do them, regardless of what anyone in a university faculty lounge says. Why in commercials almost 100 percent of auto mechanics are women, but in real life the vast majority are men?